Oh, Frank.  You got me to bite.  And you knew it would, wouldn't you?

> Look, I'm alive!

Indeed.

> I mentioned before that most of my online activity and discussion about
> anime was on message boards these days. Just because it's for old time's
> sake (if not for the CoN triad), I'm in an interesting debate with someone
> who thinks Kunou and Nabiki are a viable couple. I thought I'd post his
> argument here because I'd like people's opinions on it. Here it is.

Hardly a case at all, if I do say so...a rehash of the same old thing,
simply put forth in a far more intelligent manner than I had previously
seen on the list.

> But, okay, if you really want to have a serious debate. You say that their
> argueing shows that they really don't like each other. Well I disagree.
> They both have a way of playing with each other when they argue that can't
> be denied. It denotes a friendship.

Not necessarily - that's an assumption.  I argue with people who aren't my
friends.  In fact, I argue even more vehemently with people who AREN'T my
friends, since I have nothing to lose.

In the case of Tacchi and Nabs, I wouldn't even say they argue all that
much.  Arguing denotes a fight through words; rather, I don't see that
sort of interaction.  Instead, what I see, is that Tacchi treats Nabiki
with an almost aristocratic snobbery - he speaks with her when he has to.
The same goes for Nabiki with Kuno - she speaks with him when she feels
she has to (either in reply, or when a financial opportunity presents
itself), but instead of speaking down to him as he does her, she merely
tends to lace her typical replies in contempt.  I think this is VERY clear
by the expressions Takahashi gives her (facially) whenever the two
interact.  At the VERY LEAST, she is annoyed (the expression commonly seen
is NOT a pleasant one...until she gets paid, anyways), and I feel contempt
when I read.

> Not just a "stay away from me" relationship.

It doesn't have to be a "SAFM" relationship - it's a relationship of
convenience.  "Since you have connections with your sister and the PTG,
there are occasions when I must speak with you.  When that happens, THEN
I will speak to you," and conversely, "Since a fool and his money are
easily  parted, there are occasions when I must speak with you.  But don't
call me, I'll call you."  There not a concious avoidance ("I'm going to
stay away, I'm going to stay away....").  I don't CONCIOUSLY avoid
speaking to Eva, our departmental secretary.  If we see each other, we do
each other the courtesy of greeting each other, but I don't actively stay
away, nor does she.  But when I need to see her for something or vice
versa, it's not a task for me or her to make an approach to state our
business.  Kuno and Nabiki would be no different.  No discomfort at all.

> It shows that they are comfortable with each other. Perhaps
> as you say, just comfortable with dislike, but still comfortable. And
> that's usually how couples come about.

That is?  Funny, I simply thought it was people found each other
physically attractive, and then got along, and then decided to go out.
Sure, in the movies and on TV, that sort of stuff happens, but not in
reality, and not in high school.  High school kids are far more petty; the
whole, attraction-blanketed-by-contempt thing doesn't happen until
middle-age workplace sitcoms like Cheers and Spin City.  In high school,
if you treat someone like crap, it's because you DON'T like them, period.
After college, THEN it gets complicated.


> And I don't see how you get the impression that they don't like each
> other in the first place.

Oh, only the way Tacchi continually talks down to her, and only the
arsenic-tinged contempt that flavors her typical repsonses.  (Unless,
she's on the gain financially, in which her resonses are tinged with
bittersweet chocolate.)

> First of all, they are high school students in the same class.

So what?  I went to high school with a vast majority of the same people
for four whole years...hell, even people I went to elementary school with.
And a lot of those people, even after all those years, I STILL didn't like
(and some of them, my distaste GREW as we matured), or I just wasn't
comfortable around.

> But I've never gotten the impression that they don't like each other or
> that they want to stay away from each other.

I think it's fairly clear in the expression on Nabiki's face at least half
the time she's dealing with him that she's
annoyed/bored/contemptuous/pestered/angry.

> They just deal with each other.

With this statement, I can agree - they JUST deal with each other.  That
doesn't imply anything else.  I don't see how easily one can make the leap
from just-dealing-with-each-other to they-make-a-viable-couple.  Hell, I
"just deal" with our university's principal flautist because I HAVE to,
I'm the associate principal clarinet.  I sure as hell don't like her, and
have quite a bit of contempt for her because of her superiority complex.
I deal with her, and when I do, I do so cordially (until her attitude
suffices that I make a trademarked comment).  She's physically attractive,
but has as much personality as a two by four.  I'm certainly not attracted
to her, she's not attracted to me; we deal with each other, but we sure as
hell aren't a viable couple.  You're make a biiiiiiig leap from one
logical conclusion to another possibility that that's MANY steps away.

> Because they are comfortable with each other. They know each other.

I'm perfectly comfortable around the flautist.  I know her.  She knows me.
I just happen to think she's a heinous bitch, and she thinks that I have
no business sitting in the same ensemble as her.

> And couple this comfort they have around each other with the fact that
> Nabiki's hot and Kunou's loaded and you do have a couple.

The flautist is very hot.  She's still a heinous bitch.

Look here, Nabiki may be financially motivated, but she's not going to
base her decisions off of that completely.  If she DID, then why isn't she
always hanging onto him and sucking up to him?  Why isn't she trying to
get him to fall for her, actively prying his eyes from Akane or Ranma?
Quite simple - money is nice, but I really think Nabiki wants more.  I
think she likes something fairly different - when Soun informed his
daughters that they would be betrothed to a martial artist who had trained
in China, she seemed intrigued at the least.  It's the ONLY time I've seen
her intrigued at the prospect of being involved with a man.

During the brief time she was affianced to Ranma, she used him for money,
in much the same way that she uses Tacchi.  By your arguements, it's just
as viable to say that she and Ranma are interested in each other.
(Although she doesn't treat Ranma with much contempt or annoyance at
all...at least not to the level that she treats Tacchi...I think she's
more amused by Ranma, though.)

> Furthermore, Kunou is not stupid. It's obvious that he's not stupid.

He has seen with his own eyes that the male and female Ranma are one and
the same.  He has had it explained to him.  He has continually assumed
that both the PTG and Akane are willing to date him, despite their very
obvious and continual (daily) rejections.  He has seen with his own eyes
how obvious Ranma has made it that he doesn't want to be with Kodachi, yet
he's supportive of Kodachi's affections.

Are you so sure that it's THAT obvious?

> He's just girl crazy and sees what he wants to see. Not stupid.

Oh, well, if you're going to put it that way, then you're right.  He's not
stupid - when you see what you want to see, and not what is, then you're
not stupid, YOU'RE IGNORANT!

Personally, if I had a choice?  I'd rather be stupid.

> year old boy. There's no evidence at all to support your claim that he's
> stupid. And just because when he's a seventeen year old bot he likes to go
> around trying to be the dashing hero, doesn't mean he always will. I'm sure
> Nabiki knows this. And takes advantage of his hormone crazed mind.

Oh yes.  And we all know that there's no better way to show someone that
you truly truly care for them than to take blatant and exploitative
advantage of them at every possible opportunity.

> Kunou knows that Nabiki is going to scheme.

I think everyone knows this.

> So he tries not to fall for her
> schemes. That doesn't mean he doesn't like her or tries to stay away from
> her. It just means that he tries not to get taken, and it usually doesn't
> work. They just deal with each other.

As I've already stated, it's a big leap from just-deal-with-each-other to
we'd-make-a-great-couple.

> Not to mention that you're judging people by obvious emotions.

They're just teenage kids, remember?  They're dealing with emotions that
are fairly new to them; this isn't middle-aged sitcom where we deal with
subtleties and the conniving that we learn as we grow to protect
ourselves.  Kids are EMOTIONAL, and generally, they act or respond how
they feel.

> Just because Kunou likes the docile wife doesn't mean that he couldn't
> be with Nabiki.

Umm...I'm not sure how that fits into this - I don't recall off the top of
my head anywhere Kuno states or shows that he wants a docile wife.  (Ukyo
has shown that she likes the idea of a docile Ranma, though.)  If
ANYTHING, Tacchi's actions show that he wants a LIVELY, EXCITING wife,
simply by observing his continually obsession with two noted martial
artists who have shown the ability to kick the ass of any male at
Furinkan.  Doesn't sound to me like he wants someone docile.  Hell, it
almost sounds like he wants to be dominated. *laughs*

> All guys like a docile wife but how many get them.

Well...I don't know about that.  I sure as hell don't want a docile
wife...

> Kunou and Nabiki would have a type of love hate relationship.

Oh, and that's so wonderful!  Everyone knows that would be great.  On a
side note, does anyone else find the current divorce rate disappointing at
all?

> They  wouldn't be the first. People are attracted by more than just
> what's on the surface.

And I'm sure every Kuno detractor out there would gladly acknowledge that
Kuno has SO MUCH beneath the surface, as would the Nabiki detractors about
Nabiki.  (Don Wang and Bradster, to my distaste, have on more than one
occasion, very intelligently put...or maybe it was Colin, forth that
Nabiki is truly, completely  shallow...and they made EXCELLENT points.)
Sometimes, if you scratch the surface, you find nothing underneath.  To be
honest, I can't think of ANY story where Kuno's surface is scratched to
see if anything is underneath.  I can think of ONE story where Nabiki's
surface is scratched, and there did in fact seem to be something
underneath, and that was the Kinnousuke arc.  If there is ANYONE who
seemed to have touched something beyond the Nabiki that everyone it is
used to seeing, then it was Kinnosuke, and I think that says far more than
anything you've put forward so far.

> And as far as Ryouga and Ukyou are concerned. It's obvious that they are
> meant for each other in the anime.

IN THE ANIME.  You either discount one, or separate them into their own
universes completely.  The fact of the matter is, one stayed 100% true to
intentions and motivations of universe's creator.  The other one simply
did what it felt necessary to keep people watching.

> It's obvious because they are always put
> together in scenes. And by the second movie, who's perpose obviously is to
> couple the people. Among other things. In the manga that's not a valid
> coupling. But in the anime it's really not erroneous, it's obvious.

I suppose it's not erroneous, and it's definitely obvious.  But it doesn't
make it VALID.  I stick by what Takahashi wrote.  They're HER characters,
as SHE wanted them, not HER characters as some other guy wanted them.
Hell, if you want to count the anime as something valid, you might as well
count fanfiction as valid, too.  It'd be no different.

J. Shouryu Nohe
http://web.nmsu.edu/~jnohe
Professor of SarCaSM102, New Mexico State Univ.
"I think we have a ghost in our house." - Kaycee Nicole