Mark Patrick Williams:
>Roderick:
>>He (Ranma) was taken from his mother at a very early age, to go on a
>>non-stop training trip that included the cat-fist training, being almost
>>half-starved (maybe even fully) and almost the non-existance of friends.
>Mark: <snip>
>>I dunno, I just can't help but feeling that some of those
>>examples aren't all as bad as you put it.
>Roderick:
>>Then maybe you should try imagining what it would be like if Ryoga had
>>those peoblems instead.
>Who says Ryoga didn't have the same problems? Look at the Chronology:

You're the one who says that Ranma's problems aren't as bad as I put it.

>1. Ranma leaves for training trip with father on training trip.
>   Ryoga leaves to find Ranma by himself.

Age makes a _big_ difference here.

>2. Ranma is half-starved.
>   Ryoga is (assumably) equally starved and must find food for himself.

Ryoga doesn't have to fight Genma for food.

>3. Ranma undergoes a horrible experience where cats try to eat him.
>   Ryoga undergoes a horrible experience where people try to eat him.

Ranma undergoes his experience at a much younger age than when Ryoga
underwent his.

>4. Ranma has virtually no friends during this time.
>   Ryoga has virtually no friends during this time.

No argument here.

>5. Ranma undergoes intense training.
>   Ryoga undergoes assumably an almost equally measurable training, as
>   is shown in how closely their skills match in their first fight
>   together.

No argument here either.

>Roderick:
>>Ranma doesn't have any control over the Cat-fist, so there's no advantage
>>until he gets terrorized out of his mind. When that happens, Ranma the
>>human being is gone and in his place is Ranma the cat.
>But Ranma is shown to have some control over it. In the Cologne arc, Ranma
>uses Shampoo to force himself into the Cat-fist technique so that he can
>beat Cologne. I know it's not _exactly_ the same thing as what you are
>talking about, but in the end he knew what he was doing and did it anyway.
>And again later, Ranma is shown to have some mental connection when he
>recognizes Akane and calms down in her lap. I think you're trying to make
>the Cat-fist technique look worse than it actually is.

Like how you're trying to make the technique look better than it actually
is. Ranma has no control when in 'cat-mode'. When Ranma got Shampoo to force
himself into 'cat-mode', it was before he was in 'cat-mode'. After that, it
was 'cat-fight-off-threat' and 'cat-stop-and-come-back-to-Akane'. Ranma knew
what he was doing and did it anyway _before_ he went 'cat'. After such an
episode Ranma doesn't recall what happened (as evident during the
introduction of the cat-fist). The only mental connection that Ranma
displayed in 'cat-mode' was to recognize a loved one or someone
safe/non-threatening. (It's possible that Ranma might have behaved similarly
around Kasumi but this wasn't shown in the manga.)

>Roderick:
>>As for friends, I was refering to the training trip. He was lacking for
>>friends there. He hadn't met the Tendos yet, Ukyo was his best friend but
>>they were only together for a short time. Ryoga was only present during
>>junior high (or whatever school that was).
>You know what? I think I've forgotten what it was we were originally
>talking about here. I think I remember that you were trying to make a case
>for Ranma having at least an equally tough life as Ryoga. In the end,
>while I agree that Ranma's life hasn't been all peaches and cream, I still
>think his life is better than Ryoga's. Perhaps this will change as the
>series progresses with the introduction of Akari.

Yeah, at least. You still think that Ranma has an easier life than Ryoga's
yet you agree that Ryoga has the same problems as Ranma. Why?

>What issue is she in anyway? I've never seen her; I don't even know what
>she looks like.

About Japanese manga vol. 31.

>Mark:
>>...but then again, we've got Ranma parading around as a girl and
>>enjoying it every other episode. That's hardly the actions of someone who
>>_hates_ turning into a girl. And he's always wearing kimonos and stuff
>>like that even when he doesn't have to.
>Roderick:
>>Enjoying being a girl or enjoying the benefits a girl gets. How often
>>does Ranma wear a dress just for the fun of it? And in every instance of
>>wearing female clothing, he wears boxers. BTW, in Japan men wear kimonos
>>(or whatever the male equivalent of it is called) too so that doesn't
>>quite apply.
>Hmm. Let me rephrase then. So we've got Ranma parading around as a girl
>because he enjoys all the benefits of a girl's body. That's hardly the
>actions of someone who _hates_ turning into a girl. Addition: And he seems
>to have no qualms about turning into a girl and wearing girl's clothes
>whenever he wants to fight another girl.

Sometimes, he turns into a girl because of circumstances beyond his control.
(Weather, old lady splashing water on the sidewalk, people dumping water out
the window, no availiable hot water, etc) Anyway, besides turning himself
into a girl toget extra treats when buying food does he turn into a girl for
the fun of it? Does he act like a girl all the times he was one? He turns
himself into a girl to fight another girl because he has to. If he didn't,
he didn't (like the second 'fight' with Shampoo (vol. 30?), against Pink and
Link, against Cologne, Kiima (these are all the examples I can recall at the
moment)).

>Let me restate and revise my earlier statment. Despite Ranma's and his
>family's percieved absolute disgrace/hatred of turning into a girl, it's
>still an all around better curse than any of the other cast, barring maybe
>Genma and Pantyhose Taro.
Not to him.


>Mark:
>>It's like when Ryoga fights him for the first time. Ranma gives this long
>>speech about how hard he's got it for being a girl, and Ryoga starts
>>laughing at him for having it so easy.
>Roderick:
>>But Ryoga hasn't led Ranma's life. He didn't go through Ranma's 'mental
>>training' either.
>I mean no disrespect, but I fail to see what you're getting at here. You
>make it sound like Ranma has the right to hate his girl body just because
>he was brought up to believe being a woman is weak and disgraceful. When
>you look at Ranma's blatent use of his girl form to get things he wants -
>whether it's food, favors, or to win a fight - it calls into question the
>value that Ranma places on his girl curse. Perhaps Ranma does hate,
>barring the mixed evidence otherwise, being a girl as much as or worse
>than some of the other characters hate their curses, but it doesn't mean
>that it's bad in accuality.

Bad to you or him?

>Roderick:
>>Ranma has gotten over his curse to a certain extent, but that isn't
>>the point. Ranma turns into a girl. Ryoga turns into a pig. Even to the
>>end of the manga, they want to get rid of their curse. They don't feel
>>'whole' until they do.
>I don't remember saying otherwise.

<<Ranma's being a girl is too much a part of who he is. He may not love it,
but he's learned to accept it, and he definately doesn't feel that it
"destroyed his life".>> If being a girl is so much a part of him and he
accepted it, wouldn't he want to keep the curse then?

>Mark:
><snip more conversation about Ranma's hardships>
>>I don't
>>think Ranma's hardships earn any real sympathy from his readers the way
>>Ryoga's do. On top of that, Ranma's ability to overcome any of his
>>hardships so easily just makes it even harder for me to identify with
>>him.
>Roderick:
>>How do you know that you're right then, since it's so hard for you to
>>identify with him?
>My first thought was, "Right about what?" I'm not sure if you're referring
>to a particular passage or just asking a question in general. Given the
>vagueness of the question, my best answer is to say that I am trying to be
>as 'right' as one person possibly can.

That particular passage. How can you be 'as 'right' as one person can
possibly can' if you continue to dismiss evidence contrary to what you
believe?

>>If anything, the trip taught him martial arts, Martial
>>arts and Martial Arts. He isn't even taught manners except the most
>>basic. If Ranma's hardships doesn't earn any sympathy from the readers
>>then why is there an argument in the first place?
>Read over it again. I didn't say that Ranma's hardships earned him no
>sympathy at all.

Insert 'real' between 'any' and 'sympathy' then answer the question again.

>Roderick:
>>I feel sorry for Ryoga to fall for
>>someone who doesn't love him. I don't hold it against him.
>Agh! There's that nasty S-word again. One of the biggest differences
>between you and I (and many others on this list) is that you feel sorry
>for Ryoga.

Does this mean I hate him? If feeling sorry is nasty then I must be someone
really nasty then. (Wait, don't answer that...)

>Ryoga: (paraphrase) "Akane, don't look at me with pity in those eyes."
>Does anyone know the exact quote? It's one of my favorites.

For what it's worth Ryoga was refering to pity for losing to Ranma, not pity
for falling for someone who wouldn't fall for him back.

>>I know that Ranma has done things that are bad. But I also know that he
>>has done good deeds. What boils my blood is when people look at and keep
>>going on on all the bad things and dismiss everything good that he's
>>done. Ranma isn't a saint, maybe in another life.
>Hmm...new theory time.

Not again... 9_9

>Take away all the catalysts around Ranma. Take away the fiance's, Akane's
>suitors, and Ranma's various rivals, and what are you left with? It's
>like, if everybody would just leave Ranma alone, he'd have nothing to
>fight for and no chances to display any of his "good" qualities. I suppose
>that has a lot to do with Ranma's role as protagonist, but however you put
>it, I think it's one of the main reasons I don't like him. It's like...if
>you took away all the chaos, Ranma's bad qualities would still be there
>but you wouldn't get to see any of his good qualities because the only
>times we get to see them are during the situations of chaos.

Likewise, switch 'good' with 'bad' and 'bad' with 'good' and you'll get the
reverse result.

>Hmm...I need to think about this some more. Maybe someone else can take
>what I'm saying here and expound on it. (or not...)

Just did. =P

>Roderick:
>>(Of course, I've dragged my share of characters through the mud,
>>so what does that tell everyone about me. - - Ahh, the actions of
>>youth... I feel so much like kicking myself now.
>Mark:
>>Anybody who feels passionate about it has the right to "drag a character
>>through the mud". Among other things, it's what the ML is made for.
>Roderick:
>>Doesn't make it _right_.
>Uh, not necessarily. I think there can be quite a lot of benefit gotten
>from these types of discussions. The key word above is "passionate". Even
>when a person flames another character, at least they are (usually) doing
>it with passion. Sometimes they honestly believe what they are saying, and
>those people deserve the chance to speak their mind - and be corrected -
>just like everybody else does. Everything is open for discussion as long
>as the people invovled honestly want to try to reach an understanding
>between each other.

Still doesn't make it _right_.

BTW, what understanding are you trying to reach?

>Mark:
>>Maybe it was the fine china, then. Ranma's got it way better than Ryoga
>>or Mousse.
>Roderick:
>>So do you believe that they would actually like Ranma's life over their
>>own?
>Well, that's an interesting question. First of all, I think it depends on
>whether you are talking about a straight body-switch or just a role
>reversal.

Role reversal.

>I think my answer would be yes, but there's a lot of factors involved.
>I need to think about it some more.

Think about this too; Everytime 'Ranma' would want to get closer to whoever
'he' wants to, everyone else would be there to crash the party. Everytime
there's a crisis in the neighbourhood, 'Ranma' would be expected to help
solve it (Happosai is only one such crisis). Everytime there's a/there're
new Martial artist/s/whatever/s in town, odds are he/she/it/they'll have a
grudge against 'Ranma'. If any of the girls are kidnapped, 'Ranma' is
expected to perform the rescue _in person_.

>Mark:
>>I looks to me like what you're saying is that the important thing is how
>>Ranma sees himself instead of how others see Ranma. So if Ranma thinks
>>turning into a girl is bad, then it's enough to say his curse is just as
>>bad as anybody else. If Ranma doesn't want girls chasing him, then it
>>doesn't matter how many do it. Okay...
>Roderick:
>>Since we're talking about weather his life is easy or not, shouldn't the
>>important thing be what he thinks?
>I don't really believe so. You have to take into acount how others feel
>about Ranma, not just how Ranma feels. If I strictly use your logic, then
>I could apply the same line of reasoning to Ryoga and say that the only
>valid view of things is from Ryoga's point of view. It's far better to use
>a mixture of your own personal views, those of the characters in the
>manga, and those of the people you are talking to.

So if say Kuno finds his life easy but I don't, whose opinion really
matters? His or mine?

>>If you like girls hanging off you does it
>>automatically means that everyone else does too?
>Of course not, but it should mean that there are quite a few people (guys,
>at least) who would like it. And just because Ranma doesn't, it doesn't
>make him better than the people who do. And it doesn't exactly win any
>favor with the people who do either.

So because Ranma doesn't like girls hanging off him but they do anyway, it's
his fault?

>Mark:
>>Lonely soul in the heart of chaos? Uh...that's a stretch, don't you
>>think?
>Roderick:
>>Physical lonelyness isn't the same as mental or spiritual lonelyness.
>I'm trying desperately to get my head around this concept. I'm just not so
>sure that it applies to Ranma...

Try harder. It does.

>Roderick:
>>>One question, is Happosai good to Ranma? Is Taro? Is Genma? Are they
>>>doormats? If they are, the manga shows that Ranma helps doormats when
>>>they're down.
>Mark:
>>I guess maybe Ryoga is the only one Ranma treats like a doormat.
>Roderick:
>>No, because a number of people have helped Ranma too.
>???

Straight answer to your sarcasm. =P

>Mark:
>>That's a good difference between Ranma and Ryoga. Ranma's faith in
>>himself is just too unbelievable to me. Unlike Ranma, I can't just trust
>>my faith in myself to pull me through a situation. There's some things I
>>won't win at or do the right thing. I'm going to have to admit that
>>somethings I can't win at. Ranma doesn't seem to understand this. It's
>>like when Ryoga had more ki power in the SSH arc. Ranma just couldn't
>>admit that he didn't have as much ki power. His brain just couldn't
>>process it. It's like Ranma just wins anyway just because he believes he
>>can win. That's one of the things I don't like about him.
>Roderick:
>>Fine. But tell me this; would you like him better if he just gave up?
>I would like him better if he admited that somebody was better than him
>for once. I would like him better if he lost (or had to lose) a match
>honorably for once in his life. I would like Ranma to switch roles with,
>say, Kirin (in the first movie), and be the one saying, "I admit that I
>am no match for you." If you call honestly losing a match "giving up",
>then yes.

And if Ranma lost he would die, is that what you want? Ranma switching
tactics is the same as admitting that he cannot match his opponents
'strength'. Otherwise he would just try to overpower his opponent (i.e.: vs
Kirin, try to break his chopsticks, vs Herb, try to control his Ki better,
vs Cologne, try to outfight her _without_ resorting to the Cat-fist, etc). I
mean giving up is not having the will/desire to carry on.

>Mark:
>>Um...somehow I don't think Gosunkugi would ever be a good martial artist
>>no matter how much he trained. <snip>
>Roderick:
>>He doesn't neccessarry need to overpower his opponents. If you didn't
>>know that Happosai or Cologne knew martial arts, wouldn't they look like
>>push-overs? If Gosunkugi practices for ten years, he'd be nothing to
>>laugh about too. Besides, what you're saying is Gosunkugi with Ranma's
>>skill, not Ranma with Gosunkugi's form.
>Oh hell. I think maybe you missed the point. It doesn't matter if it's
>Ranma in Gosunkugi's form because his martial arts potential is lower. It
>wouldn't matter how much skill he had because he's just not as athletic as
>Ranma. It doesn't matter how much he trains. That's what I'm talking
>about. You can have all the desire in the world, but if the body can't
>hold up, it doesn't matter.

Ranma can work his way around lesser fighting ability, not changing gender
(without outside stimulus).

Roderick Swee
USSRTFW:SR (^_^)ooo<
TSNDRWH(C)J'CC,MN,MS,N... (Ask Sherry! ^_^)
113th Knight of the True Fiancee
Wielder of the SD Ray Gun! ^_^
Opposers of the Ranma & Akane marriage,
Prepare to be shrunk! ^_^