Reply to Roderick: Regarding Ranma and Ryoga (round 5)


to Ranma 1/2 ML <ranma@ML.usagi.org>
from Mark Patrick Williams <mpw2@Ra.MsState.Edu>
subject Reply to Roderick: Regarding Ranma and Ryoga (round 5)
date Mon, 1 May 2000 17:54:47 -0500 (CDT)
Reply to: Roderick Swee


Roderick:
>He (Ranma) was taken from his mother at a very early age, to go on a
>non-stop training trip that included the cat-fist training, being almost
>half-starved (maybe even fully) and almost the non-existance of friends.
Mark: <snip>
>I dunno, I just can't help but feeling that some of those
>examples aren't all as bad as you put it.
Roderick:
>Then maybe you should try imagining what it would be like if Ryoga had
>those peoblems instead.

Who says Ryoga didn't have the same problems? Look at the Chronology:

1. Ranma leaves for training trip with father on training trip.
   Ryoga leaves to find Ranma by himself.
2. Ranma is half-starved.
   Ryoga is (assumably) equally starved and must find food for himself.
3. Ranma undergoes a horrible experience where cats try to eat him.
   Ryoga undergoes a horrible experience where people try to eat him.
4. Ranma has virtually no friends during this time.
   Ryoga has virtually no friends during this time.
5. Ranma undergoes intense training.
   Ryoga undergoes assumably an almost equally measurable training, as
   is shown in how closely their skills match in their first fight
   together.

Roderick:
>Ranma doesn't have any control over the Cat-fist, so there's no advantage
>until he gets terrorized out of his mind. When that happens, Ranma the
>human being is gone and in his place is Ranma the cat.

But Ranma is shown to have some control over it. In the Cologne arc, Ranma
uses Shampoo to force himself into the Cat-fist technique so that he can
beat Cologne. I know it's not _exactly_ the same thing as what you are
talking about, but in the end he knew what he was doing and did it anyway.
And again later, Ranma is shown to have some mental connection when he
recognizes Akane and calms down in her lap. I think you're trying to make
the Cat-fist technique look worse than it actually is.

Roderick:
>As for friends, I was refering to the training trip. He was lacking for
>friends there. He hadn't met the Tendos yet, Ukyo was his best friend but
>they were only together for a short time. Ryoga was only present during
>junior high (or whatever school that was).

You know what? I think I've forgotten what it was we were originally
talking about here. I think I remember that you were trying to make a case
for Ranma having at least an equally tough life as Ryoga. In the end,
while I agree that Ranma's life hasn't been all peaches and cream, I still
think his life is better than Ryoga's. Perhaps this will change as the
series progresses with the introduction of Akari.

What issue is she in anyway? I've never seen her; I don't even know what
she looks like.

Mark:
>...but then again, we've got Ranma parading around as a girl and
>enjoying it every other episode. That's hardly the actions of someone who
>_hates_ turning into a girl. And he's always wearing kimonos and stuff
>like that even when he doesn't have to.
Roderick:
>Enjoying being a girl or enjoying the benefits a girl gets. How often
>does Ranma wear a dress just for the fun of it? And in every instance of
>wearing female clothing, he wears boxers. BTW, in Japan men wear kimonos
>(or whatever the male equivalent of it is called) too so that doesn't
>quite apply.

Hmm. Let me rephrase then. So we've got Ranma parading around as a girl
because he enjoys all the benefits of a girl's body. That's hardly the
actions of someone who _hates_ turning into a girl. Addition: And he seems
to have no qualms about turning into a girl and wearing girl's clothes
whenever he wants to fight another girl.

Let me restate and revise my earlier statment. Despite Ranma's and his
family's percieved absolute disgrace/hatred of turning into a girl, it's
still an all around better curse than any of the other cast, barring maybe
Genma and Pantyhose Taro.

Mark:
>It's like when Ryoga fights him for the first time. Ranma gives this long
>speech about how hard he's got it for being a girl, and Ryoga starts
>laughing at him for having it so easy.
Roderick:
>But Ryoga hasn't led Ranma's life. He didn't go through Ranma's 'mental
>training' either.

I mean no disrespect, but I fail to see what you're getting at here. You
make it sound like Ranma has the right to hate his girl body just because
he was brought up to believe being a woman is weak and disgraceful. When
you look at Ranma's blatent use of his girl form to get things he wants -
whether it's food, favors, or to win a fight - it calls into question the
value that Ranma places on his girl curse. Perhaps Ranma does hate,
barring the mixed evidence otherwise, being a girl as much as or worse
than some of the other characters hate their curses, but it doesn't mean
that it's bad in accuality.

Roderick:
>Ranma has gotten over his curse to a certain extent, but that isn't
>the point. Ranma turns into a girl. Ryoga turns into a pig. Even to the
>end of the manga, they want to get rid of their curse. They don't feel
>'whole' until they do.

I don't remember saying otherwise.

Mark:
<snip more conversation about Ranma's hardships>
>I don't
>think Ranma's hardships earn any real sympathy from his readers the way
>Ryoga's do. On top of that, Ranma's ability to overcome any of his
>hardships so easily just makes it even harder for me to identify with
>him.
Roderick:
>How do you know that you're right then, since it's so hard for you to
>identify with him?

My first thought was, "Right about what?" I'm not sure if you're referring
to a particular passage or just asking a question in general. Given the
vagueness of the question, my best answer is to say that I am trying to be
as 'right' as one person possibly can.

>If anything, the trip taught him martial arts, Martial
>arts and Martial Arts. He isn't even taught manners except the most
>basic. If Ranma's hardships doesn't earn any sympathy from the readers
>then why is there an argument in the first place?

Read over it again. I didn't say that Ranma's hardships earned him no
sympathy at all.

Mark:
>I suspect some people don't like Ryoga as much simply because he
>sometimes gets in the way of Ranma's and Akane's relationship. It might
>by that some of Ryoga's affections for Akane sometimes seem a little more
>geniune than Ranma's. Another words, Ryoga is butting in on Akane's
>growing love, and so his character needs to be brought down as much as
>possible so that he won't be good enough for her anymore.
>It's just a theory.
Roderick:
>With me, you can chuck the theory.

Fine by me. I was just answering your question. If it doesn't apply to you
then, well, don't worry about it.

Roderick:
>I feel sorry for Ryoga to fall for
>someone who doesn't love him. I don't hold it against him.

Agh! There's that nasty S-word again. One of the biggest differences
between you and I (and many others on this list) is that you feel sorry
for Ryoga.

Ryoga: (paraphrase) "Akane, don't look at me with pity in those eyes."
Does anyone know the exact quote? It's one of my favorites.

>I know that Ranma has done things that are bad. But I also know that he
>has done good deeds. What boils my blood is when people look at and keep
>going on on all the bad things and dismiss everything good that he's
>done. Ranma isn't a saint, maybe in another life.

Hmm...new theory time.

Take away all the catalysts around Ranma. Take away the fiance's, Akane's
suitors, and Ranma's various rivals, and what are you left with? It's
like, if everybody would just leave Ranma alone, he'd have nothing to
fight for and no chances to display any of his "good" qualities. I suppose
that has a lot to do with Ranma's role as protagonist, but however you put
it, I think it's one of the main reasons I don't like him. It's like...if
you took away all the chaos, Ranma's bad qualities would still be there
but you wouldn't get to see any of his good qualities because the only
times we get to see them are during the situations of chaos.

Hmm...I need to think about this some more. Maybe someone else can take
what I'm saying here and expound on it. (or not...)

Roderick:
>(Of course, I've dragged my share of characters through the mud,
>so what does that tell everyone about me. - - Ahh, the actions of
>youth... I feel so much like kicking myself now.
Mark:
>Anybody who feels passionate about it has the right to "drag a character
>through the mud". Among other things, it's what the ML is made for.
Roderick:
>Doesn't make it _right_.

Uh, not necessarily. I think there can be quite a lot of benefit gotten
from these types of discussions. The key word above is "passionate". Even
when a person flames another character, at least they are (usually) doing
it with passion. Sometimes they honestly believe what they are saying, and
those people deserve the chance to speak their mind - and be corrected -
just like everybody else does. Everything is open for discussion as long
as the people invovled honestly want to try to reach an understanding
between each other.

Mark:
>Maybe it was the fine china, then. Ranma's got it way better than Ryoga
>or Mousse.
Roderick:
>So do you believe that they would actually like Ranma's life over their
>own?

Well, that's an interesting question. First of all, I think it depends on
whether you are talking about a straight body-switch or just a role
reversal.

I think my answer would be yes, but there's a lot of factors involved.

I need to think about it some more.

Mark:
>I looks to me like what you're saying is that the important thing is how
>Ranma sees himself instead of how others see Ranma. So if Ranma thinks
>turning into a girl is bad, then it's enough to say his curse is just as
>bad as anybody else. If Ranma doesn't want girls chasing him, then it
>doesn't matter how many do it. Okay...
Roderick:
>Since we're talking about weather his life is easy or not, shouldn't the
>important thing be what he thinks?

I don't really believe so. You have to take into acount how others feel
about Ranma, not just how Ranma feels. If I strictly use your logic, then
I could apply the same line of reasoning to Ryoga and say that the only
valid view of things is from Ryoga's point of view. It's far better to use
a mixture of your own personal views, those of the characters in the
manga, and those of the people you are talking to.

>If you like girls hanging off you does it
>automatically means that everyone else does too?

Of course not, but it should mean that there are quite a few people (guys,
at least) who would like it. And just because Ranma doesn't, it doesn't
make him better than the people who do. And it doesn't exactly win any
favor with the people who do either.

Mark:
>Lonely soul in the heart of chaos? Uh...that's a stretch, don't you
>think?
Roderick:
>Physical lonelyness isn't the same as mental or spiritual lonelyness.

I'm trying desperately to get my head around this concept. I'm just not so
sure that it applies to Ranma...

Roderick:
>>One question, is Happosai good to Ranma? Is Taro? Is Genma? Are they
>>doormats? If they are, the manga shows that Ranma helps doormats when
>>they're down.
Mark:
>I guess maybe Ryoga is the only one Ranma treats like a doormat.
Roderick:
>No, because a number of people have helped Ranma too.

???

Roderick:
>>He  wouldn't need to learn new attacks. He'd (sorry about this) be Kuno.
>>Basically everyone of the cast has normal problems (besides the curses)
>>that are basically blown out of realistic dimentions. Even Ryoga.
Mark: Okay. You're right.
Roderick: Sarcasm or no?

I was agreeing. Sorry for the confusion.

Mark:
>That's a good difference between Ranma and Ryoga. Ranma's faith in
>himself is just too unbelievable to me. Unlike Ranma, I can't just trust
>my faith in myself to pull me through a situation. There's some things I
>won't win at or do the right thing. I'm going to have to admit that
>somethings I can't win at. Ranma doesn't seem to understand this. It's
>like when Ryoga had more ki power in the SSH arc. Ranma just couldn't
>admit that he didn't have as much ki power. His brain just couldn't
>process it. It's like Ranma just wins anyway just because he believes he
>can win. That's one of the things I don't like about him.
Roderick:
>Fine. But tell me this; would you like him better if he just gave up?

I would like him better if he admited that somebody was better than him
for once. I would like him better if he lost (or had to lose) a match
honorably for once in his life. I would like Ranma to switch roles with,
say, Kirin (in the first movie), and be the one saying, "I admit that I
am no match for you." If you call honestly losing a match "giving up",
then yes.

Mark:
>Um...somehow I don't think Gosunkugi would ever be a good martial artist
>no matter how much he trained. <snip>
Roderick:
>He doesn't neccessarry need to overpower his opponents. If you didn't
>know that Happosai or Cologne knew martial arts, wouldn't they look like
>push-overs? If Gosunkugi practices for ten years, he'd be nothing to
>laugh about too. Besides, what you're saying is Gosunkugi with Ranma's
>skill, not Ranma with Gosunkugi's form.

Oh hell. I think maybe you missed the point. It doesn't matter if it's
Ranma in Gosunkugi's form because his martial arts potential is lower. It
wouldn't matter how much skill he had because he's just not as athletic as
Ranma. It doesn't matter how much he trains. That's what I'm talking
about. You can have all the desire in the world, but if the body can't
hold up, it doesn't matter.

Mark (who is really, really tired after writing this letter)


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