Mark Patrick Williams:
>Roderick Swee (RS from now on):
>>To show a point, let me say that Ranma hasn't exactly had a luxury life
>>either. He was taken from his mother at a very early age, to go on a
>>non-stop training trip that included the cat-fist training, being almost
>>half-starved (maybe even fully) and almost the non-existance of friends.
>Hmm...yeah, I guess when you put it that way, Ranma has had it pretty
>rough. But I dunno, I just can't help but feeling that some of those
>examples aren't all as bad as you put it. I mean, sure Ranma was taken
>from his mother at an early age, but it's not like he didn't have a parent
>at all. Even if Genma wasn't the best father, at least he was there.
>(Ryoga is lucky to see his parents a few times out of the year.) And the
>cat-fist training (although emotionally scarring) left Ranma with nearly
>the most powerful technique in the Ranma-verse. As for friends, I don't
>really feel that Ranma is lacking for friends, maybe not good friends but
>he's got friends. Like the Tendos and Ukyo (and Ryoga?).

Then maybe you should try imagining what it would be like if Ryoga had those
peoblems instead. Genma was there, yes. But Genma was also the one to eat
Ranma's food too when they were both starving. Ranma doesn't have any
control over the Cat-fist, so there's no advantage until he gets terrorized
out of his mind. When that happens, Ranma the human being is gone and in his
place is Ranma the cat. As for friends, I was refering to the training trip.
He was lacking for friends there. He hadn't met the Tendos yet, Ukyo was his
best friend but they were only together for a short time. Ryoga was only
present during junior high (or whatever school that was).

>Maybe...but then again, we've got Ranma parading around as a girl and
>enjoying it every other episode. That's hardly the actions of someone who
>_hates_ turning into a girl. And he's always wearing kimonos and stuff
>like that even when he doesn't have to.

Enjoying being a girl or enjoying the benefits a girl gets. How often does
Ranma wear a dress just for the fun of it? And in every instance of wearing
female clothing, he wears boxers. BTW, in Japan men wear kimonos (or
whatever the male equivalent of it is called) too so that doesn't quite
apply.

>It's like when Ryoga fights him for the first time. Ranma gives this long
>speech about how hard he's got it for being a girl, and Ryoga starts
>laughing at him for having it so easy.

But Ryoga hasn't led Ranma's life. He didn't go through Ranma's 'mental
training' either.

>>His
>>life was destroyed (from his POV) the moment he fell into the
>Nyanniichuan.
>Hmm...this is really intriguing me. Are you saying that Ranma never got
>over being cursed? Umm...Bah. I don't believe it. It's not Ranma's style
>to feel that way about anything. His girl body is a hinderance sometimes,
>but he uses it as a tool just as many other times. Ranma's being a girl is
>too much a part of who he is. He may not love it, but he's learned to
>accept it, and he definately doesn't feel that it "destroyed his life".

Sure, that's from where we're sitting. But do you have a personal 'doom'
hanging over your head? (I'm not talking about death or the promise to
Nodoka.) Ranma has gotten over his curse to a certain extent, but that isn't
the point. Ranma turns into a girl. Ryoga turns into a pig. Even to the end
of the manga, they want to get rid of their curse. They don't feel 'whole'
until they do.

>>And after all that, Genma sprang a surprise engagment on him. And that's
>>before even the first scene of the story.
>I really hate breaking up your paragraphs the way I do, and I'm sorry if I
>fail to see the big picture of what you are saying when I do so. Taking in
>all that you said above as a whole, I don't think I agree with you. Sure,
>Ranma hasn't had the ideal nuclear family growing up, but I think all the
>training in China and everything was meant to show how he had built a
>strong character and become a "man among men" (as you put it). I don't
>think Ranma's hardships earn any real sympathy from his readers the way
>Ryoga's do. On top of that, Ranma's ability to overcome any of his
>hardships so easily just makes it even harder for me to identify with him.

How do you know that you're right then, since it's so hard for you to
identify with him? If anything, the trip taught him martial arts, Martial
arts and Martial Arts. He isn't even taught manners except the most basic.
If Ranma's hardships doesn't earn any sympathy from the readers then why is
there an argument in the first place?

>>BTW, I don't know why you think
>>that the reason you provided is why people dislike Ryoga, he's my
>> favourite male character after Ranma.
>Let's see..why I think it's the reason? Again, to reiterate my theory...
>I suspect some people don't like Ryoga as much simply because he sometimes
>gets in the way of Ranma's and Akane's relationship. It might by that
>some of Ryoga's affections for Akane sometimes seem a little more geniune
>than Ranma's. Another words, Ryoga is butting in on Akane's growing love,
>and so his character needs to be brought down as much as possible so that
>he won't be good enough for her anymore.
>It's just a theory, but I feel it has at least some merit.

With me, you can chuck the theory. I feel sorry for Ryoga to fall for
someone who doesn't love him. I don't hold it against him.

>>Anyway, back to Ranma, ahem. Oh SURE, Ranma can
>>have thrity women chasing after him, it's because _he_ isn't chasing
>>after _them_, _they_ are after _him_. (If he was after them then it'd be
>>different, but he's not.)
>True. This is the perfect comeback to anyone who complains about Ranma
>getting too many girls. But well...Ranma's just sooo unlucky to have girls
>chasing after him. *sniff* Please give me a moment while I wipe the tears
>from my eyes.

So glad you feel that way. =P

>RS:
>>Ranma is a jerk to you because you don't see his other qualities. =P Sure
>>he can be selfish, rude and inconsiderate, but that's the way he was
raised.
>>Ranma didn't know any better until he came to the Tendo Dojo as Genma
>>practically forced him to grow up selfish, rude and inconsiderate. The
>>scenes that show Ranma to be nice and considerate are the ones that show
>>his inner side, the part untouch by Genma's upbringing. Ranma is hiding
>>behind a facade, inside a shell that was erected because of his ten-year
(?)
>>training trip. As for the last point, Stiffany has pointed out that Ranma
has
>>helped numerous people. You just have to take a look at the manga, it's
all
>>there in black and white.
>"Well, just because he doesn't mean to be a jerk, doesn't mean he isn't
>one."
>Okay. You got me. And the funny thing is I can't think of a single reason
>why I shouldn't disagree with you, other than to try to come up with
>something like the above sentence. The proof is spelled out just like you
>wrote it - "it's all there in black and white". For every instance Ranma
>displays jerk-like qualities, there's a dozen more where he shows that
>he's a better person than that. I don't know who came up with it first,
>but I like the way he/she put it: "Ranma only _acts_ like a jerk." But
>well, damn, I hate putting it like that because then you might as well
>just absolve him of every contrary thing he's ever done.

I know that Ranma has done things that are bad. But I also know that he has
done good deeds. What boils my blood is when people look at and keep going
on on all the bad things and dismiss everything good that he's done. Ranma
isn't a saint, maybe in another life.

><snip Mark saying that Ryoga's feelings for Akane aren't stupid>
>>I'll agree with that.
>Gasp!!!

Told 'ya! =P

>>I support this wholeheartedly. (Of course, I've dragged my share of
>>characters through the mud, so what does that tell everyone about me. - -
>>Ahh, the actions of youth... I feel so much like kicking myself now.
>>Sorry, but fried brains don't work well.)
>Anybody who feels passionate about it has the right to "drag a character
>through the mud". Among other things, it's what the ML is made for.
>Uh..right?

Doesn't make it _right_.

>>To get this out of the way first, I hope you agree that Ranma didn't get
>>his life handed to him on a silver platter.
>Maybe it was the fine china, then. Ranma's got it way better than Ryoga or
>Mousse.

So do you believe that they would actually like Ranma's life over their own?

>>NOW. Ranma isn't perfect. He never loses, but that's because he's had to
>>work to be where he is (the training trip, etc). He's got girls hanging
off
>>his shoulders, that 'HE DOESN"T EVEN WANT' and you think it's a good
>>thing?! He's fated to marry Akane, but that's the one true gift from
fate/destiny
>>that he has (his talent for martial arts comes with a price, namely
>>(insanely powerful) rivals, etc, same with his brillant tactical
thinking).
>>His 'curse' is to turn into another human being which, because of his
>>upbringing, is every bit as bad (to him) as turning into an animal. All of
>>Ranma's weaknesses that turn into strengths are those that he works to
>>turn into strengths. (BTW, it isn't just a dislike of cats, it's sheer
terror of
>>cats, a huge difference) What I see isn't what you think I should be
seeing.
>I looks to me like what you're saying is that the important thing is how
>Ranma sees himself instead of how others see Ranma. So if Ranma thinks
>turning into a girl is bad, then it's enough to say his curse is just as
>bad as anybody else. If Ranma doesn't want girls chasing him, then it
>doesn't matter how many do it. Okay...

Since we're talking about weather his life is easy or not, shouldn't the
important thing be what he thinks? If you like girls hanging off you does it
automatically means that everyone else does too?

>>Ranma represents that to you, but to some others, Ranma is seen as a
>>lonely soul in the heart of chaos. He can do things better than everyone
else
>>because he needs to, just survive the more impossible days in Nerima.
>Lonely soul in the heart of chaos? Uh...that's a stretch, don't you think?

Physical lonelyness isn't the same as mental or spiritual lonelyness.

>>One question, is Happosai good to Ranma? Is Taro? Is Genma? Are they
>>doormats? If they are, the manga shows that Ranma helps doormats when
>>they're down.
>I guess maybe Ryoga is the only one Ranma treats like a doormat.

No, because a number of people have helped Ranma too.

>>This just means that you haven't trully seen Ranma. He doesn't think or
>>knows that he's perfect because if he did, he wouldn't be going to
>school.
>>He  wouldn't need to learn new attacks. He'd (sorry about this) be Kuno.
>>Basically everyone of the cast has normal problems (besides the curses)
>>that are basically blown out of realistic dimentions. Even Ryoga.
>Okay. You're right.

Sarcasm or no?

>Mark>Because he was designed that way.
>RS:
>>I'd like to hear what happens if you mention that to Blade (the one that
>>subscribed here at around late 97).
>Uh...what would Blade say?

I don't know, find him and ask him then tell me. =P

Acctually, I'd rather you don't. I've had enough of him. -_-** (Actually I'm
sorry I even mentioned him.)

>>Ranma's winning because 'he knows he can win' is call 'faith in
one'sself'.
>>Ryoga is similarlly the opposite. He needs to be angered to succeed. It's
>>written in both their Ki blasts. Ranma has gotten depressed before, two
>>prime examples are the Hiryu Shoten Ha story arc. You may not have felt
>>his struggle, but it's there.
>That's a good difference between Ranma and Ryoga. Ranma's faith in himself
>is just too unbelievable to me. Unlike Ranma, I can't just trust my faith
>in myself to pull me through a situation. There's some things I won't win
>at or do the right thing. I'm going to have to admit that somethings I
>can't win at. Ranma doesn't seem to understand this. It's like when Ryoga
>had more ki power in the SSH arc. Ranma just couldn't admit that he didn't
>have as much ki power. His brain just couldn't process it. It's like Ranma
>just wins anyway just because he believes he can win. That's one of the
>things I don't like about him.

Fine. But tell me this; would you like him better if he just gave up?

>Mark:
>>Let Ranma spend a few days in somebody like Gosunkugi's shoes. Now THAT
>>would be a curse. Not turning into a drop-dead gorgeous girl with minimal
>>loss to his martial arts skill.
>RS:
>>Martial arts skills can be learned, changing gender cannot.
>Um...somehow I don't think Gosunkugi would ever be a good martial artist
>no matter how much he trained. What I mean is that it would be a real
>curse because Ranma would have to turn into somebody who's martial arts
>potential sucked. Even with Ranma's skill, Gosunkugi would still lose
>because he's a wimp. Girl Ranma is just a female form of Ranma - still a
>naturally good martial artist that can kick the other girls' butts any day
>of the week.

He doesn't neccessarry need to overpower his opponents. If you didn't know
that Happosai or Cologne knew martial arts, wouldn't they look like
push-overs? If Gosunkugi practices for ten years, he'd be nothing to laugh
about too. Besides, what you're saying is Gosunkugi with Ranma's skill, not
Ranma with Gosunkugi's form.

Roderick Swee
USSRTFW:SR (^_^)ooo<
TSNDRWH(C)J'CC,MN,MS,N... (Ask Sherry! ^_^)
113th Knight of the True Fiancee
Wielder of the SD Ray Gun! ^_^
Opposers of the Ranma & Akane marriage,
Prepare to be shrunk! ^_^