Re: ranma ML 1 hour matome okuri


to ranma@usagi.jrd.dec.com
from Hunter Kid <guilds@mail.serve.com>
subject Re: ranma ML 1 hour matome okuri
date Thu, 01 Jan 1998 12:22:15 -0500
h-k, 'evil twin' ;):

><I think the dream would not have been shown unless it had some
>significance - in this case, that Ranma was desperate enough to defeat
>Ryoga that he would attack him in his sleep to do so.  Meaning that in
>wake-up land, given the chance, he would.>
>
>     Not necessarily true...  Dreams are situations where a person may
>sho his/her deepest desires, but that is all they are...  Ranma may have
>the desire to do so, but he may or may not act upon those thoughts...
>
>     But I do understand your point...  I just don't think that Ranma
>would go as far as to do something like that...  that main thing is that
>he _didn't_ act upon his fantasies...

He wasn't given the chance to, though, was he?  I mean, I don't think he
went up to Ryoga, saw him sleeping, and said, "Ah, forget this."

><Ranma *can* explain the curse; he's never tried, so you can't say it
>wouldn't work.  I think, that if Ranma sat down with Kunou and told him
>that, "I have this Chinese curse that makes me turn into a girl blah blah
>blah," Kunou would finally get a clue. >
>
>     What about in Viz Part 6, Vol 1?  The baest way to explain it is to
>actually show the curse to the person...  One second Kunou is holding
>osage no onna, the next he's holding Ranma...  he still doesn't get the
>clue?  

Thing is, even with showing him, *his* explanation is the only one that
could possibly make sense to him.  I mean, surely you don't expect him to
say, "Oh, you have this weird Chinese curse that turns you into a girl!
How obvious!"  Since he thinks he already has a firm grasp on the
situation, and what happens can be explained using his version of the
truth... <shrug>

>     But if you look at it, Kunou never really gives Ranma a chance to
>explain anything.  In just about all the refernces I've seen concerning
>interaction between Ranma and Kunou, Kunou seems to instinctively either
>try to hug (as osage no onna) or attack (when "normal") Ranma.  Ranma
>always counters with a foot to Kunou's face...  It seems that Ranma and
>the others had just given up on trying to convince Kunou of Ranma's curse
>after the first few tries...

Ranma, who's a tenfold better fighter than Kunou, could probably just stun
him and explain it to him.

><Kunou doesn't believe Ranma simply because the truth, in this case, is
>as bizarre as Kunou's fantasy - and, looking at it from Kunou's POV, I
>can kind of see why his version of the truth seems more believable.  (And
>'ha' to everyone who said I refused to look at things from various 
>characters' POVs! ;) >
>
>     I never said that...  But why do you say Kunou is right...  Ranma
>has "changed" in front of Kunou more than once or twice, in full view no
>less, and still Kunou remains oblivious to Ranma's curse, but then again
>Akane remains oblivious to Ryouga's curse, but then again, everyone seems
>to hide that fact from Akane...

I don't want to get into why Akane doesn't know about Ryoga's curse.

As for Kunou, I'm not saying that he's right.  I'm just saying that, from
his POV, I can see how his assumptions would make sense, and they're
semi-backed up by the events.

><However, if Ranma (or someone that Ranma asked to do it for him, maybe,
>say, Akane or Nabiki) were to explain it to him, I think he would
>understand.>
>
>     Not a good idea...  Akane is likely to do the same thing to Kunou
>that Ranma does on a "daily basis".  And if Nabiki tells him, he's liable
>to think that it's some kind of scam on him...  Remeber, this is _Kunou_
>were talking about...  We're not exactly sure what goes on in that mind
>of his...  then again we're not sure of what goes on in _all_ of the
>characters' minds...

Okay, how about Ryoga?  Or maybe Kasumi?  Pantyhose Tarou! :)

><  Also, if Ranma's halfway intelligent, he'd have ways to back up his
>story, like asking Shampoo and Ryoga to demonstrate their curses before
>Kunou...>
>
>     If Ranma was halfway intelligent, he _wouldn't_ do this...  What
>makes you think that if he doesn't believe in Ranma's curse that he'd
>actually believe the other ones?  I don't really see him (Kunou)
>believing in _any_ of the curses...

If they were explained to him, he might.  I think he would, actually,
unless he comes to the conclusion that they're *all* evil sorcerers...  I'm
hoping that he's a grain more intelligent than that, though.

><I meant, though, that the majority of them seem to be Ranma's fault, and
>that *all* of them are his fault if you look at in the light that he
>hasn't explained himself to Kunou yet, and if he did, Kunou would get off
>his back.>
>
>    Kunou would still be on Ranma's back for beingAkane's "iinazuke"

That's true, but it *would* stop the groping and stuff.

><<nod>  Please note that all I am saying is not that Ranma didn't have
>good intentions, but simply that he treated Akane as if she were his.  At
>least, that is how it appeared to me.>
>
>     I believe his _intentions_ were good...  He was trying to prevent
>Akane from being kissed by Mikado.

Agreed.  Still...

><I didn't say he was scum.  I said he was possessive.  I didn't even say
>that in this case, that possessiveness was *bad* - but it's there, and I
>was asked for examples where Ranma treated Akane as if she were his
>property.  Well, there you go.>
>
>     That you did, but sometimes you have to add in what _you_ think of
>the situation... to avoid confusion, if you know what I mean...

Okay, my take on the situation of Ranma/Mikado/Akane:

Ranma is not being a bad guy.  Ranma is being a very un-scummy person in
protecting Akane and tough-talking to Mikado, which is perfectly
understandable.  He is, however, being possessive of Akane, and that's all
I care about at this point. :)

><Mess with him?  Would *I* do that? ;)>
>
>     Yes, you would... ^,~

Guess I'm a natural antagonist... ;)

><If you want.  However, you agree with the first one, then?>
>
>     In one word...  yes, but I don't think of it as such a bad thing... 
>Ukyou was the _oly_ person that he could really go to in this ep... 

While that's true I have to question whether that's even relevant.  I mean,
if Ukyou had been the one with the reversal jewel, he probably would've
done the same thing to Shampoo...in which case, it'd be just as rude.

>Goddess forbid he would ever Akane such a thing???  ^_^

:P

><That it was; however, it was a very cruel joke, and an example of
>treating Ryoga like trash.  (For laughs - that makes it even worse. :P)>
>
>     If you look at Ranma and Ryouga's "relationship" 

<glances nervously at the CoRR>

>it has been a chain
>of jokes on each other, one after the other, played mostly by Ranma, but
>Ryouga does get a couple good ones in there...

And most of those jokes that Ranma plays are cruel ones.  Ryoga does this,
too, as you said - Ranma just does it more often, and his seem more cruel,
also, because of Ryoga's...um, bad moods. :P

><Make mose?  I dunno.  How do you make mose? ;)>
>
>    Gomen...  I meant  _moves_... ^,~  How would you feel if some guy
>tried to make _moves_ on your girl?

<g>  See below.

><Seriously, though, Ranma's actions *do* make sense to me.  However, he
>was still treating Ryoga like trash, which is what the question was.>
>
>     True, but if you can't blame him for such actions, why even "argue"
>using them?

I am blaming him for such actions, but they make sense anyway.  Just
because something makes sense doesn't mean it's okay...I mean, I understand
why you're arguing against me, but *HOW DARE YOU*???  (That was a joke.)

><Because Ryoga was trying to get Ranma up, and didn't intend to simply
>beat the crap out of Ranma while he was asleep.  Note, even with the
>'fists through the pillows' stuff, that he didn't seriously attack Ranma
>until they were outside; no umbrella blows or kicks, which *would* have
>hit the sleeping Ranma.>
>
>     But the action and _intent_ were there...  If Ranma hadn't tossed in
>his sleep, the attacks would have connected.   Ryouga still threw punches
>at Ranma's head while he was asleep.  That is considered attacking, in my
>book

I guess we'd have to compare how strong Ryoga is in comparison to the
toughness of a pillow.  He may have just been punching lightly to get Ranma
up, or he may have intended to bash his rival's skull in.  I personally
think that Ryoga didn't much care for inflicting damage on a sleeping
opponent...

>     Just something I thought of...  Why is it that every other character
>in Ranma 1/2 besides Kunou, 

That would be, 'the Kunous.'  Kodachi hasn't figured it out, either.

>has figured out about Ranma Saotome's curse
>without Ranma having to say a word about it?  Just a stupid little
>question I wanted to ask ya...  ^_^

Because they didn't have Nabiki screwing with their conceptions of why
Ranma was changing sexes.  Also, most of them seem a little more perceptive
than Kunou.

>     Y'know, I'm getting kinda tired of this discussion...  there are so
>many points to touch on and we'd still be "debating" on this issue...  I
>know all I have to do to end this discussion is stop talking about it,
>but like you, HK, I am not one to back away from a discussion easily...
>^_^

Yeah, me neither.  Fatal flaw in my character.  Made for horrifying
flamewars with Don/Kun-chan. :P

>     I hope you're in agreement that we should just leave this here and
>continue on withour ML lives... ^_^

Yeah, but it's like I'm glued to the discussion.  You drop your gun, I'll
drop mine! :)

This's to h-k's anonymous friend:

><If you're someone's property, you're their slave.  However, if they just
>treat you like trash, that means they simply hate you. <shrug>>
>
>Sometimes people get treated like trash through accident, or because the
>person doesn't know better. Konatsu was treated like property and like
>trash. He was treated like a slave and was hated by his step mother and
>(step?) sisters.

Yeah, so he got the worst of both worlds. :P

><Read the Battle Dougi story.>
>
>Never answered the question.

You asked 'how did he seduce Akane,' right?  Well, read the Battle Dougi
story and see for yourself.

><He deserves it, though, so I don't really think it's a bad thing that
>she's doing.>
>
>Again not providing an answer. Just throwing out an opinion to back his
>point.

An answer to what?  You didn't quote the original question.  Judging by the
answers, though, it was, "Is it bad that Akane beats up Ranma?"

Well, that's my answer.  No.  He deserves it, so it's not really bad.

><Yeah, shit does happen.  But just because everyone's doing it doesn't
>make it any less rude, you know.>
>
>Also doesn't mean that since one person is challenging the status quo,
>he's automatically right.

Agreed.  We're getting a bit off-subject here, though...

><Mousse apparently just wanted something as the stakes for the battle,
>and since Shampoo was off-limits from Cologne's say-so, he just picked
>Akane instead.  But that's not the issue, nor the problem - the problem
>is that Ranma agreed to it, thinking that she was his to give away.>
>
>Convenient how his mind remembers the situation isn't it? :P

You know, for a guy who's accusing *me* of being evasive... :P

><No, he didn't; he made faces at her while hanging on the rope.  It was
>Cologne who cut them both down.>
>
>As I see it; Both saw Akane dangling from the tree, and their reaction to
>that was 'He can't have her!' and at that incident, Ryoga wasn't exactly
>leaping to get Ranma away from her and keep Akane from hitting the
>ground.  Ryoga was still standing there, and was calmly waiting for Ranma
>to fly to him.

Well, the way he saw it (that is, assuming his mind was off it's anger trip
long enough to even notice Akane), Akane was safe because Ranma was holding
her.

><At that point, I'd say he had a rather one-track mind; it's doubtful
>that he even noticed that she was there...>
>
>And if it was Ranma, it would be 'he doesn't care', 'he thinks that she's
>his to hurt and allow hurt to come to!'

If the roles were reversed, you mean?

Well, at that point, I'd say that Ranma had a rather one-track mind, and I
don't think it's fair to say that he even noticed she was there.

You can't say 'he doesn't care,' because he didn't notice her, so you can't
judge whether he cares or not.

HK

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