>	Fire away, Ukyou fanboy.  She does not suck at fighting.  A person like

Yes she does.  I'd wager that she couldn't beat any of the other fighting
characters in the series.

>her, being taught by one of the best school's in the series, having a
>good mentor, countless targets to practice, and someone better to spar
>with, may not beat, but certainly is not worse than someone who relies
>only on tools and unguided through martial arts for 10 years practicing
>in a dubious school to begin with (I mean, okonomiyaki as a fighting
>technique?)

I mean, umbrellas and bandannas and belts as fighting techniques?  That's
part of what Ryoga, who doesn't study *any* school of fighting, uses, and
he can take just about anyone in the cast, unarmed or armed.  

It's not what you use, it's how you use it.  And Ukyou's very good with her
chosen weaponry, probably a notch behind Shampoo, but certainly better than
Akane.

>	Volume 3, page 39 - "Your improvement is impressive."

"Such progress.  You can stop now."

I don't have the tankoubons, just the graphic novel.  I think that's what
you're talking about.  At any rate, he was making fun of her (Akane's reply
was 'don't make fun of me!'), not being serious.

>	Only people like Ranma can master a new fighting style in one day.  It
>took Ukyou ten years of practice on her style and to master it.  When

Ranma didn't 'master' Rhythmic Gymnastics in one day; he was just handy
enough with tools in general that he could take Kodachi.  The only two
people that seem to know a lot about RG are Kodachi and Ryoga.

>you're intensely focused into fighting, you can get yourself hurt over
>things you missed.  Let's say Ranma was doing the spiral for the Hiryu
>Shoten Ha and there's a rock in the way.  There's a good chance he might
>trip over it because he has to focus his concentration to succeed in the
>Hiryu Shoten Ha.  Granted, practicing does not take that much effort,
>but Akane isn't as good as Ranma, either.
 
Still, it says something about Akane's reflexes/agility/balance/etc.
Nabiki puts it into words perfectly:

"My sister, the klutz.  Tripping yourself."

>	Or do you mean to tell me Ranma is a clutz and can't do martial arts
>because he accidentally gets hit by keetles of cold/hot water all the

No, I don't.

>time?  He's more than capable to dodge them, but he gets hit by them
>nevertheless.  Say, when he goes to meet Nodoka and wants her to see him
>as a guy, but didn't notice the cold water splashed on him because some
>waiter spilled ice water from behind?  The speed of that is
>significantly slower than most of the attacks he needed to evade.  Yes,
>those situations are comedic, but it also goes to show that even the
>best martial artist can be subject to unexpected surprises if they're

Thing is, Akane *should* have been prepared for the ball being there.  She
put it there, after all.

>not prepared for them.  For a better concrete example, Mousse and Ryouga
>KOed Ranma-chan in one hit in Herb's story.  Now, Ryouga and Mousse
>might be better than Ranma-chan in fighting abilities, but it certainly
>would take more than one hit to take her out if they're fighting
>seriously.  How did it work?  It's because Ranma wasn't suspecting it. 
>It's nearly analogous to either be completely unawared, or so
>concentrated into one thing that obvious obstacles are missed.  Both

It could be, but swinging a ribbon doesn't seem to me to be the sort of
thing that would require really intense concentration.

>	If you mean to suggest that Ukyou is near Mousse's level, you're
>definintely wrong.

Prove it.  They both lost to Ranma, and Ukyou did better than Mousse did.
In an all-out fight, Ukyou's probably very similar to Mousse.  Look at
their arsenals and you'll note remarkable similarities, though the weapons
themselves are different.

>	Ranma was trying to lose, yes, but his instincts made him dodge and
>beat up Mousse.  That's why he took him out in the beginning.  That's
>why Akane smacked him, becuase he accidently won.  He was, at least
>unconsciously, fighting him seriously.  Mousse's forte is in his speed
>and weapons, and he does them definitely better than Ukyou.
>
>	For Ukyou, Ranma was trying to make up the faults he made before.  Had
>he even wanted to fight serious to begin with, she wouldn't have landed
>any hits.

He was in a bad spot by the time he started fighting seriously, I'll give
him that, but there's the fact that even after he started fighting
seriously (that would be about when he burned his hand on the grill), Ukyou
was still landing hits, with the tempura flakes, oiler, noodles, slap, etc.

>	No.  His comment is:  "Do you have enough?"  It implies he was not

"H-hey, come on, now..."  Sounds like he's getting nervous because he's
getting beat, to me.

>fighting back.  Only after he was hit by the gunpowder you see the
>iritation.  He did not got serious until the gunpowder blasts. 
>Otherwise, as shown that he could, at any given time, used the noodles
>against Ukyou, he would have done so already.

No he couldn't have, because he was stuck by the glue batter at the time.
Ukyou's tactics were actually pretty good.

>	If he tried to fight back, he'll just either break the noodles (that
>thing breaks a lot easier than cement, and Ranma can break cement), or
>just do what he did later, use the glue to his advantage.  The reason

Noodles.

>why he didn't do it is because he didn't want to, because he's sorry and
>wanted to make it up to Ukyou.

At first, yes.  That desire left him after he got burned, though, and she
was still smacking him around.  She let her guard down after the gunpowder
blast; that's why he was able to snag her so easily.

>	Unless she sleeps with the spatula, it's not impossible to sabtoage it.

I wouldn't put it past her to sleep with the spatula.

That wasn't what I meant, though - I meant was, "How do you sabotage a
spatula without it being REALLY obvious?"

>	For one thing, she doesn't seem to carry the big spatula while
>cooking.  She only has the small ones, the normal cooking utensil, which
>is has a minimal threat.  I believe she didn't take the spatula with her

The small ones are about equivalent in power to Ryoga's bandannas, which
isn't all that weak.

>in the Onsen race, either.  She supposedly didn't carry the spatula
>going into the basketball game with Hinako, but later pulled it out from
>nowhere.

So it's like Akane's mallet, then, in which case she *does* always have it
with her.

>	That's because Ranma wasn't paying a lot of attention to the battle to
>begin with.  If so, he either would never have got hit, break the
>noodles, or use them to tie Ukyou up.

I disagree.  Ukyou was able to catch him with the glue due to his own
sloppiness - she  threw him onto the grill (at which point he became
serious about the fight), then tossed some of the batter on him, then
wrapped him up with the noodles and knocked him onto the grill again, all
which he was trying to defend against - a futile gesture while tied up.
That shows that Ukyou is, among other things, fairly good with battle tactics.

>	Someone who fights two times out her entire appearance is not a
>fighter.

You could say the same about Genma - he doesn't fight too often, but we
know that he can fight pretty damn well if need be, therefore he's a
fighter.  Same thing with Ukyou.

>	Nice way to refute it.  It is accepted, yes, if you mean Genma said so,
>but it is not necessarily an honorable engagement.

In your opinion.  Not Nodoka's.

>	End justifies the means.  You're the real Machiveilian Prince.  I guess
>if Ukyou gave her shop to Genma and made him say that she can marry
>Ranma now, you'll appluad the action, too.

No, it would be true, though.

>	But no, Ranma 1/2 isn't that kind of society.  Honor still holds it
>together to a certain extent, and definitely for Nodoka.  She is not
>going accept this engagement, which would've threw the series from

How so?  Why chaotic to orderly?  Having Nodoka accept it would have just
screwed with RT's plans for the end of the series, so she avoided the
problem by it never coming up.

>chaotic to orderly.  If she was going to accept it, what harm does it do
>the series?  Absolutely none.  It is not going to make people more
>sympthetic to Ukyou, and even so, the existing Akane and Ranma
>relationship clearly means that even if it's accepted, it won't have any
>effect to the outcome.  Therefore, the conclusion is that she won't be
>accepted, because there is no reason to accept it, both from the honor
>viewpoint Nodoka holds, and from its overall effect on Ranma 1/2, which

That's some messed up logic.  Basically, it's like this:

If Nodoka accepts the engagement, then the readers will have more sympathy
towards Ukyou.  RT doesn't want that.  So she doesn't make the question
come up.  If Nodoka refused to accept the engagement, nothing would change.
 If RT thought this was logical, she would have just put it in there.
Seeing as though she didn't, Nodoka would obvious accept Ukyou as a fiance
for her son.

>is zero.  Only a rejection could've make a significance, so that's why
>it wasn't written.  Had RT made Nodoka rejected the engagement, it would
>look too much like a wrap-up, and further injustifies the wedding
>fiasco.  

Excuses.  She could have just gone OOC - not a big deal, considering she
did it anyways - or she could have justified it with 'Ukyou was pissed at
Ranma's mom' or something to that effect.

>	It is the way she is perceived in the series.  Her only threat value
>comes in the Ten Year Sauce story, and even that, despite what people
>claim, her actual threat to the relationship is very minimal.

Prove it.  How in the world can you say that she's less of a threat than
Kodachi, anyway?

>	Doesn't matter.  The cast treats her like she's no real threat, so
>she's no real threat to them.  It does not matter how the reader
>conceives them.  The threat value is exclusively defined as the
>hostility a certain person faced.  If you notice, that's why there's the
>constant 'get rid of Akane' attempts by Ukyou/Shampoo/Kodachi, because
>she is the biggest threat to them.  Shampoo, to whom engagement doesn't
>matter, still focuses her energy and effort to get rid of Akane whenever
>possible, not Ukyou.  Why?  She knows the spatula girl is no threat to
>begin with.  She might 'kill' her if she got in the way of her plans,
>but otherwise Ukyou's not a concern to her.  Same with Kodachi, too.

Yeah, but you'll note that Shampoo and Kodachi aren't trying to kill each
other, either.  Everyone knows that Ranma likes Akane, so their target is
Akane, not each other.

And in the scenes where Shampoo and Ukyou are trying to get Akane out of
the way, you say that 'well Shampoo isn't trying to kill Ukyou' - is Ukyou
trying to kill Shampoo?  It's the same thing; the three of them *do*
perceive each other as threats, just not so much as Akane.

>	Hey Caroline.  That goes with your backstabber theory perfectly, no?

I don't think 'backstabber' is the right word, because Ukyou never gave
Akane a reason to be nice to her.  She's actually not very nice to Akane at
all.

You could say that they're 'friends' in the roughest sense, but it's really
a one-sided thing, with Akane showing the kindness and Ukyou basically
being cold to her.  Mean?  Yes, to a point.  Though it also means that
Akane should suspect that Ukyou is plotting something.

>	If that is true, Ukyou is really a dispicable person, you know that? 
>Pretending to be a friend to Akane while plotting to take away the
>person that is most valuable to her.  I'd much rather have Kodachi and
>Shampoo's killing attempts anyday than to have a hypocritical
>backstabber.

Ukyou is not a 'hypocritical backstabber' because she doesn't try to make
Akane think they're friends.  She plots behind her back, yes, but since she
doesn't try to 'lead anyone on' or anything like that, that pretty much
shoots down your theory...

>	Memories don't get carried from one story to another.  By probably the
>10th volume, Akane pretty much forgave Shampoo.  She was worried that
>she might chose to marry the Bakendo just because Ranma rejected her. 
>She trusts her enough that her immediate reaction wasn't "What the heck
>is Shampoo doing here?" when Shampoo came to 'rescue' her, but rather
>worried that she may get hit by the trap.

They still don't like each other.

>	No it is not.  Ukyou is never perceived as a serious threat in the
>series.  That much I am certain. 

Well, you're wrong.

>	It's because the series would end.  The guy is only 16.  There is *no*

Excuses. 

>	Sheesh... sounds like the Blade argument all over again... holding a
>guy responsible because his actions are needed to propel the series.  He
>has zero responsbilities to any of the other girls, really.  He doesn't
>have to accept anyone or reject anyone, and he does not owe them
>anything, either.

He owes them all something because he's hurting everyone around him with
his indecision.

>	Some people cannot admit their true feelings easily.  It's not

Yes it is.  It's emotional cowardice, and Ranma's hurting everyone around
him with it.

>	Jealousy.  That reason alone is enough for almost *any* action done in
>Ranma 1/2.

Doesn't make it any more justified or any less scummy.

>	If I don't know better, I'd assume Blade hacked into another account,
>because this is exactly what he said, too.

If this's what Blade said, than he was correct.

>	The guy lies because it's the only way for him to solve this situation
>without hurting anyone.  Do you want to him to say:  "Go away, Ukyou.  I
>never loved you to begin with so get out of my life?"  No, because
>Ranma's a nice person.  He rather have Ukyou hate him for the wrong
>reasons, that she'll think he's a bad husband, them to hurt her for
>telling her the truth.  He's not a bright person.  He can't admit the
>truth yet, and he doesn't have a lot of good plans, but he tries the one
>that would hurt people least.

Beating Ukyou up is *not* a viable solution.

>	Why does the guy have to answer to everyone who comes and said to have
>a claim on him, especially if the claims are not even within his power? 
>I suppose, them, that he owes Kaori an answer, too, because she
>technically was a fiancee of his?

Because they *do* have claims on him.  He doesn't owe Kaori an answer,
because she left, basically showing that she didn't care all that much in
the first place (or that she was honorable in accepting the consequences of
her actions.  or both).  And don't forget the 'honorable' way that Ranma
let Akane win that race - by holding onto Kaori's legs.

>	Ranma doesn't wreck houses.  It is considered 'unnormal' behavior for
>Ranma to wreck the house in the Hiryu Shoten Ha story, suggesting that
>his normal behavior doesn't do that.

He does, however, often knock holes in walls and the like.

>	Funny from you, Ukyou fanboy.

I don't try to excuse Ukyou's actions if they're unexcusable - however,
they aren't.

>	Your efforts never ceased to amaze me.  Everyone of these story you
>haven't read, yet you cite them as if you know what is actually going
>on.

Yup, I'm sure you know exactly what I have and haven't read, right, Don?
Can you read my mind, now?

>	In the Secet Sauce story, he chose the best action he is capable of
>that would hurt Ukyou as little as he hoped.

I don't think so.  Pretending to get drunk so he can beat her up isn't a
good solution.

>	In Ryouga's story, he was JOKING to bury Ryouga.  Ryouga himself didn't
>even take it seriously.  He was mad because Ranma lied about what
>happened between Akane and him.

The point is, he didn't really care whether Ryoga was alive or not.

>	In the dougi story, the reason is that Ranma's ego is better than
>anyone else in the story and can't stand losing, even to Akane.  No, his
>action are not necessarily excusable, but he received plenty of beating
>from Akane, and Akane forgave him.  If Akane, the person who have a
>right to hate him in that story, forgave him, I don't know why you need
>to hold this against him.

Because it was an inexcusable action.  Trying to seduce her is really low,
even for him.
 
>	No matter, because you already look like an idiot.

Not nearly as much as you, though.

Hunter Kid
http://www.serve.com/guilds/ranma/
guilds@mail.serve.com