Subject: Reply
From: Hunter Kid <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:49:24 -0400

>In other words, you don't take into account everything that he has said and
>done.

Yes I have.  You, on the other hand, seem to be ignoring everything bad
that he does.

>He tries, but can *anyone* do it with all the pressure that he's under?!

Probably.

>The way he was raised taught him nothing about how to show affection, he
>usually shows his real feelings by action, especially when he isn't
>thinking about them and occasionally he admits it when saving Akane, when
>he tries to tell Akane how he feels, he mostly doesn't know how to go about
>it, and usually gets interrupted. He told Shampoo that he didn't love her,
>but she came back from China, but by then, Ranma saw how hurt Shampoo was,
>and just didn't want to hurt her anymore. Ranma doesn't tell off Ukyo
>because he doesn't want to hurt her feelings like he unknowingly did to
>Shampoo. Ranma is under pressure by four different women, and he doesn't
>want to hurt any of their feelings therefore, the issue is always avoided.
>It's easier for him to face off against a eight-headed monster than it is
>to openly show his feelings.

That's not the point.  The point is that he's hurting everyone around him
by not making a decision, and therefore is shirking an important
responsibility that he has.  If it's that hard to show a woman his
feelings, than I definitely was correct in calling him 'coward.'

>Same kind of reasoning for when other character lies, they didn't find
>another way of doing things.

That doesn't make it justified, or the right thing to do.  Or any less scummy.

>He got jealous, everything that he heard about the date pointed to Akane
>just wanting to go out with Ryoga and dumping him, the event affected Ranma
>more than he would admit and in wanting to get Akane to drop Ryoga, he
>resorted to pretending to be Ryoga's fiancee because that was to him, the
>best way to keep Ryoga and Akane from each other.

What you say is true.  However, Ranma actions were scummy, sleazy, and
generally unexcusable.  All you did was give the reasoning behind his
actions:  jealousy.  Sure, he's jealous.  That doesn't give him the right
to screw with Ryoga's chance at happiness.

>This was just after Ryoga used Ranma as a pathfinder just to get to his
>house and meet Akane. Again jealousy spurred the impersonation, Ranma
>doesn't want anything to happen between Ryoga and Akane.

And again, this doesn't make it right.

>What broken promises?

Like the one where he promised that he'd take care of her for the rest of
his life, after which he tried to beat her up.

>Lying about what? The truth of the ten year sauce? He was afraid, afraid
>that he would lose a friend, he doesn't have many friends so he doesn't
>want to lose any, he didn't want to disappoint Ukyo and in the end he took
>responsibility for it.

Yeah, right.  In the storyline, he was thinking of how he was going to get
away from Ukyou, and hatched some idiot plot where he'd pretend to get
drunk, then beat up Ukyou, thus driving her away from him.

>That 'lying piece of scum' as you call him, doesn't lie to that degree that
>you are implying. Others lie as well, as do maybe all the people in the
>world, so why are you singling him out? If he is a 'lying piece of scum'
>for lying to not hurt somebody, what are those who lie to lie blatantly
>just to resolve themselves of blame for any actions and lie to take credit
>for any praise?

Basically because no one else who lies - or does anything, for that matter
- affects so many people in such harsh ways as it does when Ranma does it.

>He cares enough to not hurt her feelings, and he'd rather have Akane care
>for him instead. So that 'thoughtless brat' part is doesn't have any solid
>basis.

Sure, sure...like beating up Ukyou's going to make her feel real great, right?

>Not really, when are the instances? What do you refer to as cheating.

Unskilled combat, or combat moves that are distracting and/or unfair, and
do not require skill to execute.

Examples of these that I've cited before are when he/she showed Herb
his/her breasts, or saying, "I can see Akane's panties!", turning Ryoga
into P-Chan, or getting outside help in a fight.

>I think that all the characters are a lot less slimier than you think any
>of them would be. Ranma has never stooped to Genma's level, and has taken

Genma initiated some of the problems with his thieving, but Ranma is the
one who continues (and encourages, sometimes) them and lets the problems
drag on.  Ranma's also done his share of mean/nasty/cruel things, some of
which I've mentioned already.

>I doubt Happosai cares much about what others think, he has self-justified
>his own actions.

Agreed.

>And how often is often?

Often is often enough to make me consider him an overall 'bad' person.

>And what is your notion of abuse? Ranma doesn't want to hurt any of them at

Oh, let's see here.  

Ukyou - trying to beat her up; leading her on; lying to her
Akane - hitting her; and the emotional stuff that he affects her with every
day
Shampoo - leading her on
Kodachi - leading her on

>Kasumi doesn't abuse anyone at all. Soun occasionally helps to wreak his
>own house while kicking Ranma out of it, often for things that are beyond
>Ranma's control. So Soun isn't totally innocent too.

That's my point.

>He's better than his father by a large margin. He has the responsibilities
>of four people on his shoulders and he doesn't run from it. It shows a
>*LOT* of integrity for a teenager.

He *does* run from it.  That's one of his main problems - he shirks the
responsibility of dealing with his fiance problem, hurting just about
everyone in the series by doing so.

>Ranma has shown a good heart in all the stories he has been in. Ranma has
>never held a grudge, never let others get bullied and always helps others.

'Always helps others?'  When?  When has he helped Ryoga, without getting
something in return?

>No, it couldn't be.

It could be and it is.

>I *AM* a Ranma fanboy. I'm *also* an Akane fanboy, a Ryoga one, Ukyo's,
>Mousse's, Shampoo's, basically I really like mostly all the characters and
>I'd rather none of them get insulted unjustly. If I can excuse Ranma's
>actions, I can excuse any of them, which is why I don't attack your

The problem is that Ranma's actions aren't excusable.

>favorite characters. Even Happosai does a good thing once in a while. I
>don't excuse *all* of Ranma's actions, I know that he brings about some of
>his bruises, and I *have* stated so before. This line of reasoning that I
>am a 'Ranma fanboy and because of that all his actions are excused' is
>unjustified and unfounded.

Not as much as you might think.

>He consoled Ukyo, lied to cheer her up, get wacked for helping her and
>doesn't complain, prevented her from getting poisoned by the sauce, tried
>to keep her happy to the best of his ability, admitted his fault to her,
>try to get her to hate him, drank all the sauce. With the way things came
>out, his solutions were acceptable.

You're conviently forgetting that he tried to beat her up to drive her away
from him, and told her that BS about taking care of her for the rest of her
life.

>He never went that far, and even he thought he did kill Ryoga, he was
>thankful for Ryoga's help, sorrowful for the wounds he had caused him with
>the Hiryu Shoten Ha and he was even saying an eulogy before he found out
>that Ryoga's alive. Ranma does care, no matter how he manages to convey it,
>he has shown it.

I seem to recall Ranma gloating about learning the HSH, ignoring the
injured Ryoga all the while.

>After Ryoga saved him, Ranma wondered if he was there to take his
>frustration out on him just like the others before, Ranma didn't know what
>to expect after all the times Ryoga has tried to kill him. He didn't get to
>say thanks because immediately after, Ryoga said something which Ranma felt
>that implied that he was weak. As for hitting Ryoga, I guess Ryoga wanted
>proof that Ranma couldn't couldn't hurt anyone physically any more.

Actually, that single scene I thought was kind of touching, what with Ryoga
crying and all...

>And how was he responsible for that mess??

Which one?  In the former, while I don't remember the exact storyline, I
think he was pretending to be Kodachi's boyfriend.  In the latter, he was
trying to seduce Akane.

>The fact that he tried was inexcusable. The fact that he couldn't shows
>that it's against what he believes.

The point was that he tried it.  At least you agree that it was
inexcusable... :)

>Yes, I do, for the ones that aren't his fault, just as I will excuse any
>characters who aren't to blame for their actions. And this fanboy doesn't
>believe in  attacking any other characters to promote his own. Ranma does
>the best he can in the situation he was thrown in, I hardly believe that he

If he does, that's pretty bad.  Read all my stuff about responsibilities
and his multiple fiances, etc.

>should be blamed for that. Think about what would happen if another
>character was in the same situation with all the same strings and
>entanglements surrounding Ranma shifted to that character, how would that
>character go about doing things, with all the skills, talents and mentality

I'm writing a fanfic about that, actually.  "How would Ryoga handle himself
in Ranma's situation?"  I am biased towards Ryoga, though...

>that they possesses, none more none less? Exclude all characters that you
>are biased towards or against, they usually won't get a proper
>representation. Now, how many others would come out the same as Ranma, how
>many better and how many worse? Sure, Ranma isn't perfect, but none of the
>others are too. He makes mistakes, but he's only human. Others make
>mistakes, but they are only human. I make mistakes, but I am only human. We
>make mistakes, but we are only human.

Ranma handles himself worse than most other characters would, I think.  The
one who could probably handle Ranma's situation best is Mousse, because he
knows who he loves and isn't afraid to admit it.  Ryoga would wind up
pretty bad, but he wouldn't be as bad as Ranma, because of his morals and
stuff.  Kunou would be in heaven. :)

>Well, this 'pathetic idiotic' looking person only used caps for that one
>post.

Good, and I hope not to see the caps returning in the near future.  I like
the '^_^' side of you much better than the RANMA RULES AND DON'T DISPUTE IT
side.

>Heh.  This is one of the manga that I actually own.  Lets see here.
>Ranma starts by trying to be friends again.  Dodges all Ukyou's attacks
>sits on her spatula gets thrown off, dodges all her little spatulas, lands on
>burning grill. (genma starts cooking eggs)  Ukyou strows the glue at Ranma

Landing on the grill - one hit against Ranma.

>who gets his feet stuck in it.  Then Ukyou throws out the rubber yakisoba
>noodles and ties up Ranma who couldn't dodge 'cause he was stuck.

Getting hit by the glue batter - two hits against Ranma.

>So he's tied up and stuck then Ukyou tries to smash him with the spatula
>but he puls out of the clue, though he is tied up in a little ball.  He lands

Good dodge.

>on
>the grill again, then Ukyou oils the grill and throws tempura mixed with
>gunpowder at Ranma.  Ranma looks a bit singed but kinda unhurt at which

Two more hits against Ranma.  (Depends if you could the tempura flakes as
one or more.)

>Ukyou is rather suprised (big ! above her)  Ranma procedes to start to fight.
>Ranma: Since we... were friends once...I'll be nice...and not settle this...
>..in such a dangerous place
>He then breaks the noodles and ties up Ukyou.  Ranma then spins her above
>his head by the noodles and throws her a ways out of the ring.

One hit for Ranma.

>Then Ranma runs after the fleeing Ukyou.  He insults her saying fight like a
>man
>to which she tries to attack him with the spatula which misses.  He grabs it
>kicks her cuts open her shirt with the spatula then breaks the spatula.  The
>only
>time he is actually hit is when she slaps him for grabing her chest.

That makes another hit for Ranma (sort of).

>See above.  I don't see any point where Ranma was loseing at all.  To all
>acounts
>he had a significantly harder time with Moose.  In that story they actually

Only because he was female.  Once he returned to being male, he KOed Mousse
with two attacks.  Ukyou, at least was dodging some of Ranma's attacks.
(Not too shabby considering she was trying to hide her chest at the same
time.)

>Well there isn't much else going on.

True.

>I wasn't talking about the Anime.  You can find it translated at the 
>Ranma 1/2 project.  Don't remember the address though.  It also has the
>wedding fiasco there.  It's the secret part.

I'll take a look at that...

>I suppose, but if that is the case Ryouga would be a veritable emotional
>wimp. 

Yup.  The difference is that Ryoga's emotional wimpiness isn't hurting
anyone except himself, while Ranma's emotional problems are hurting
everyone around him.

>No Kunou attacks him all the time and Ranma beats him up.  And those
>stretches you mentioned they seem to me to be really long stretches.

Oh?  How so?

>By not making a choice.  He did at the end and look what happened.  He didn't
>make a choice for good reason, very good reason.  I admit that he is a jerk

I think that was due to a misunderstanding more than anything else.  Ukyou
is the only one who was probably motivated by anger over Ranma making a
choice - Shampoo was pissed because she's delusional and thinks that Akane
has Ranma under a spell or something.

Happousai, of course, is the one who really laid waste to the place, and
that was because of the Nanniichuan that he drank.

>to Akane, but he isn't bad all the time.  They seem to get along a decent
>amount.  And I don't beleive I am familiar with what he does to Ukyou.

Lies to her and leads her on, amongst other things.

>He turns Ryouga into P-chan in the middle of fights O_O when where?

Not during the 'important' fights, but it does happen sometimes.

>Anyways the breasts to herb thing wasn't what made herb lose whas it?

The point was that it was an unfair and unskilled tactic.

>And actually in a fight I would say that playing mind games is perfectly
>exceptable.  However bringing something like a gun to a fight would be

Whether mind games, fights are meant to be a measure of skill (usually),
and when you use tricks like that, you aren't judging skill any more.
Therefore, any fights won using said tricks isn't a true victory.

Hunter Kid
http://www.serve.com/guilds/ranma/
[email-masked]