Very well put B.

----- Original Message -----
> From: "B Smith" <ifuritaoni@yahoo.com>
To: <megami@ml.usagi.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2003 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Norns or not? (I'd perfer... civil)


> (prepare for a long winded discussion)
>
> I have to say there are clear arguements that go both
> ways; though points like consulting with Fugishima by
> Studio Proteus are as much a matter of business as
> wanting to make sure the author/copyright holder is
> appleased.  After all, there has been many times when
> members of this list have disputed SP's translations
> so it is ironic IMHO that now SP are being quoted as
> virtual canon....
>

True true... that's why I made the point of bringing up their less than
stellar translations and how they like to ADD things to the manga that
arent' there.... So while on one hand...  I quoted them as having claimed
Fujishima-san said such and such.. I felt it would have been less than
honest of me to pretend that they are 100% reliable.

Now, that said... I'm not sure that they'd misquote the creator like that.

Doing translations and taking some creative license with the characters is
one thing (IE. Peorth's goofy habit of ending everything with "desu wa"
which I'm given to understand is a kind of maner of talking that could be
compared to anything from "valley speak" (like totally tublar) to
hick-speak.. "Ya'll come back now, ya hear?") and something I think they
could do a lot better, then there's the interpretative stuff... liket the
Almighty being the Goddesses father (I am of the "where did they get this
stuff" camp... I defy anyone to find the goddesses using "Otosan" anywhere
in the manga when they take to the almighty).. and then there's the way the
hell out there stuff like "Keiichi, will you record bevis and butthead for
me?" that has no basis in translation of the manga at all. BUT... I'm just
kinda dubious that they'd misquote Fujishima-san in this sort of context is
all... Translation is one thing... that's something else... but hey.. Let's
not forget who we're talking about here... this is Studio Proteus... so
anything could happen.

> As for the issue of where the truth lies in such
> matters, I personally feel that Norse myths have been
> taken as some source material (like Star Wars took
> from Tolken's Lord of the Rings) from the Norse myths
> but any study of the Norse myths (something I would
> strongly suggest to all members of the ML) would show
> serious differences.

> (snippage of good norse stuff)

> That said, the whole structure of the Norse "heaven"
> was very different from the Celestial Techno-cracy
> that is portrayed in AMG.  Odin was top dog of the
> gods but a far cry from the Judeo-Christian
> All-powerful Creator that is the implied head honcho
> of AMG.  Some of you might remember the tale of Odin
> plucking out an eye and being lashed to a tree for 8
> days (I think) and from that ordeal he received great
> wisdom and vision of the future.  He was known to be
> feckless, ruthless and sometimes a bit hotheaded.
> Many of the gods ignored him.  Hardly the Kami-sama
> pictured in AMG.
>

I donno.. I mean remember the whole Lord of Terror arc?

The almighty was all set to blast Urd from all indications if the lord of
Terror ever awoke in Bell's memories.

But so too.. he was really forgiving of Bell and held off attacking Urd and
instead let Bell use the midgard serpent antivirus program... while he was
marsheling his power if that failed.

I guess the thing is... I wonder if the almighty wears an eyepatch... they
never show his face.. so who knows.

> While AMG uses a lot of Norse myths, it is VERY loose.
>  Keeping the structure and some of the characters is
> not the same as keeping the whole and more importantly
> the INTENTION of it intact.  Also note that huge
> amounts of technology are used.  Very un-norse like
> considering their reliance on tradition (again read
> some source material on Norse people and religion if
> you want).

*nods*.. very good points all.

> The Norse gods were very independent, self
> reliant beings whereas AMG divine beings carry a
> we-are-all-connected mentality that is clearly asian
> in nature.
>

Yep.. and to me this makes very good sense...when you consider the context
of where it's coming from. That being; a Japanese person writing for other
japanese.

Look at most Manga (not just AMS!)... all the characters generally orbit
each other... working together.. it's the mentality of the people writing
them coming through.

Then look at the comic in the US... and compare... all the characters in
western comics are generally individualists.. because westerners are
individualists.

Now, this is just my opinion here... but a person is generally going to
write in the cultural context that he/she is most familiar with.

To Fujishima, and the average reader of his work in Japan (since that's the
target market) the most understandable and familiar form that heaven
takes... is that of a celestial bureaucracy... so I think it's natural that
he would interpret any other culture's mythos in terms that he is most
familiar with... a celestial bureaucracy.


> My point is that Fugishima my even believe he is
> really using the norse myths properly,

Heh... in all honesty... I don't think he would claim he is.. but if he
did... good god.. someone send him some info on the mythos.. fast!

> but AMG would
> look unrecognizable (expect for the names) to someone
> versed in Norse lore and lifestyle.  This not to say
> it's bad or wrong.  Just that it is VERY different
> from the original source material.
>
*nods* Totally agree.
Of course there is the tact that you could take that the Goddesses and such
existed as they are even back in the norse times... and that the norse just
reinterpreted their existence and heirarchy into something that made sense
to them.
Again... the whole; "people interpret things in ways that match their own
culture"-thing

> My honest opinion..is "so what?"

And a good opinion it is!

> There are no Norse
> people left to sue for defamation of character nor is
> strict adherence needed or required just for the sake
> of a comic whose main purpose (in my opinion) is to
> always end the storyline leaving a warm, fuzzy feeling
> at the bottom of the reader's heart.  The comic is
> being written/drawn by a man whose background is
> buddhist/shinto and takes place in Japan so most of
> elements and situations are essentially Japenese in
> both culture and many situations.

Hmmm.. that brings up an interesting question.

 IS Fujishima-san shinto?

Bear me out for a second here... and lemme explain my reason for
wondering...

I'm not a zealot or nothing... just thinking about this..

The thing is, most Japanese celebrate christmas and other western
holidays... just becuase they are fun... whether they're shinto or not...
and X-mas specifically because it's a kick butt holiday and fun. They also
do the St Valentine's day thing... though it's a bit different there... over
there the Women give the men chocolate... then the men give the women gifts
on White day with is March 14th if I remember correctly.
But my point is this.. most other authors write in X-mas celebrations, and
Valentines day and so forth... and usually they aren't christian... but it's
almost like Fujishima-san avoids doing those days... could it be that he's
not shinto and therefore avoids using those holidays for fear that it would
look like he's using the comic for prostelatizing (sp)?

For anyone wondering what I mean by that.. Prostelatizing is the active
attempt to convert others to your faith or to teach your faith to others.

Sure Fujishima-san uses the western Angel theme heavily.. but why does he
avoid western holidays so much when other manga use them so freely?

Oh well.. the thoughts that one comes up with.

>
> This is only my opinion, not a statement of
> my-way-or-the-highway.
>

Very reasonable.

> That said, ultimately, it is up to the AMG creator to
> say one way or the other...but would that make things
> better or worse?

Honestly... and this is just my opinion.. I don't think it should make THAT
big a difference to anyone.

The thing is... what I mean by this is that he's shown that there are more
than the norse mythos at work in AMS!... Mara being one example.. (Mara is a
sort of amalgamation of various demons and goddesses from hindu faith...
even though she looks german and doesn't even remotely act or dress or look
(no multiple arms) like a hindu faith goddess or demon.) and Senbei being
another (he's supposed to be a Djinn I think... that would make him from the
pre-muslim middle-eastern faiths)  so I think that Dennis's theory that
calling the AMS! universe a sort of mythos 'melting pot' is a good idea.

> The two camps on this ML are fairly
> adament of being totally in the right (anyone seen the
> movie Gettysburg?...great movie...the caption under
> the caption was "Two Sides. One God.")  If he ever
> came down with a statement of fact, one side would be
> elated while the other seemingly vanquished.  He could
> potentionally lose fans and in the case of this ML,
> the I-told-you-so's would no doubt cause further bad
> blood.
>

Well, I donno *scratches chin* I mean you could be right there... that you'd
hear crowing from one side and the other side would be pissy, pack up their
toys and say "I'm not gonna play with you anymore"... but the thing is, like
you said, it's a comic. All that one side has to do is act like a grown up,
say, "Okey dokey, I ceed the point on this." and be done with it.

> AMG is just a comic.  No matter how much you debate
> otherwise, it's just a comic along with a ton of
> others from equally imaginative creators like Clamp
> (too many to list), Shirow (Ghost in the shell,
> Dominion), and Fred Gallagher (of the webcomic
> Megatokyo).
>
> Make no mistake.  I love AMG.  I was inspired by the
> movie to do an Urd cosplay at Otakon last year.

Pictures!... we want Pictures!

>  While
> it's cool and I look forward to the next DH issue, it
> is no substitute for a life.  As such, while debate is
> good and healthy, we should NOT be fighting and name
> calling and such.

Totally agree.

> Of late, the debating has moved
> into more extreme personal attacks and that is just
> plain WRONG.
>

Again, totally agree.

> So let us all try to stick to the facts (what facts?
> It's a comic, not the Encyclopedia Britannica!) and
> not get in each other's faces saying "you're a moron
> if you disagree."
>

Yep, and you make a very good point.... that ironically the only available
"facts" about Fujishima's intent...are coming from the same source that we
so frequently moan and groan about (Studio proteus) each time we see the
latest butchering they do to the original manga when they play (fast and
loose) with the translations.

SP is just a plain hard source to quote... because of the fact that they're
frequently inventing things out of nothing... and believe me.. I really
really debated even bringing their interpretation of what was mentioned in
that meeting into the debate... because they are so flakey when it comes to
delivering the unvarnished facts.

> I am sure some will think my thoughts scattered,
> indefensible and perhaps just plain retarded.
>
Hey, knock off the self bashing!

I thought it was a very well put together arguement.

You stated your opinion, you presented your evidence clearly, questioned the
veracity of the sources, you constructed well thought out points, and backed
em up with info...

All in all I thought it was very praiseworthy

> Fine.  This is just a debate over a comic, not a
> matter of life-and-death.
>

And you finish it up with the absolute truth.

Bravo.