Re: Suggestions for A!MS Technical FAQ


to megami@ml.usagi.org
from Brian Welch <bwelchz7@yahoo.com>
subject Re: Suggestions for A!MS Technical FAQ
date Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:20:21 -0800 (PST)
--- Edward Chang <chang.459@osu.edu> wrote:
> Some suggestions (great work by the way):
> 
> <<
> Therefore, since
> Yggdrasil is in Heaven and Yggdrasil must be
> operating
> in at least 10 dimensional space, Heaven must exist
> in
> at least 10 dimensional space.
> >>
> 
> Not true. Consider: Strings are 23-dimensional (or
> 10-dimensional, depending on which heterotic theory 
> you use). However, they can exist in our own, only-
> three-dimensionally-expanded universe because
> they only manifest certain vibrations. Therefore,
> even if Yggdrasil is 10-dimensional, Heaven can be 
> smaller or larger, depending on in how many 
> dimensions Yggdrasil vibrates in.

I considered this, but it has problems. We're all 10
dimensional (I'll just use this as the number, since
it's the one that appears in the manga) beings
according to string theory, it's just that all but 3+1
of our dimensions are tied up so we can only interact
in 4 of them. 

The key question here is whether or not Yggdrasil has
to occupy 10 expanded dimensions in order to operate
on a 10 dimensional construct, even one with only 4
expanded dimensions like the superstring. I would
think it has to, since if Yggdrasil is only expaned
in, say, 4 dimensions how can it operate on dimensions
which it can't even access within itself? If it can,
then we have a situation where, to use a simpler
analogy, a 2-D (2 expanded dimensions) object is able
to emulate and reconstruct a 3-D (3 expanded
dimensions) object, which I don't think is possible no
matter how smart that 2 dimensional object is. 

If Yggdrasil has 10 expanded dimensions then, how does
Skuld debug it if she isn't also 10 dimensional? The
bugs would exist in 10 expanded dimensions and Skuld
wouldn't be able to see them any more than Keiichi can
see Belldandy's true form. Do bugs constantly regerate
3-D forms like Belldandy does? Why would they do that?
Come to think of it, Yggdrasil itself would have to do
the same since Skuld walks around it while debugging.
I'm not saying that this is impossible, just that
figuring out ways for objects of different
dimensionality to interact with each other gets
complicated real fast.  It's much simpler to assume
that Yggdrasil exists in the same expanded dimensions
as Skuld & co.

Finally, Belldandy tells Keiichi that she doesn't
naturally exist in 3-D like he does, implying that she
normally manifests in extra dimensions.

> 2. Yggdrasil and Heaven exist in a (at least) 10
> dimensional space.  Since the goddesses are from
> Heaven, they  must also be at least 10 dimensional
> entities.
> >>
> 
> Again, same reasoning.

> Austrian Polkas? Good God. Chalk up another reason
> why
> I dislike Dark Horse. Enka are nothing like polkas.

Yeah, it kind of ruins Oktoberfest for Urd, too!

> So, how does Belldandy generate a 3 dimensional form
> for Keiichi to hold hands with? She simply tells
> Yggdrasil to tell the superstring to draw a 3
> dimensional Belldandy in the temple holding hands
> with Keiichi. Her true form is also presumably right
> there,
> only imperceptible to Keiichi. Note that generating
> a 3 dimensional form is a subconscious function,
> requiring
> little power, kind of like breathing is for us. In
> other words, even Skuld could do it without
> problems,
> even during the moonrock bracelet episodes.
> >>
> 
> This implies that manifesting a three dimensional
> form is in some way an active process, even if
> subconscious. This
> is not necessarily true. Consider: a surface of
> water can
> be considered a two-dimensional plane. If I stick my
> hand in the
> water, then part of me manifests on that plane. It
> requires no
> active process on my part to manifest a
> two-dimensional part of me
> on that plane; rather, the fact that I exist in
> multidimensional
> space cross-sectional to that plane causes this
> fact. Therefore,
> there is no indication that Yggdrasil has anything
> to do with it;
> it could just be that Belldandy, if truly
> ten-dimensional, simply
> intersects as a three-dimensional crosssection on
> Earth.

I would normally agree with you, except that Belldandy
specifically tells Keiichi this, and even begins to
disappear at one point. This occurs just after Skuld's
arrival in the manga in case you want to check the
reference.

> Final Note: The demons in OMG have similar abilities
> as
> the divine beings. Though they don't have a direct
> link
> with Yggdrasil and they don't even seem to have a
> direct link to Nidhog (the demon's computer system),
> probably everything said here applies to them as
> well.
> >>
> 
> Don't know how Dark Horse says it, but Hell's
> computer is Nidveg in the original.

Another Belldandy/Verdandi translation, apparently.
There is no Nidveg spelling in Norse mythology. 

> However, can that 2 dimensional image do much to
> affect
> us while we are looking at it from 3 dimensional
> space?
> Of course not. Likewise, there is very little anyone
> attacking in 3 dimensional space can do to
> significantly harm Belldandy. Even if her 3
> dimensional
> form were destroyed, she would simply regenerate it
> since she has to constantly do so anyway. Of course,
> Belldandy isn't completely immune to events in 3
> dimensional space. Remember how she gets drunk from
> cola? Little unexpected vulnerabilities seem to be a
> part of goddesses and demons alike.
> >>
> 
> Not true. There is a semi-famous sci fi story,
> though I forget the author, wherein earth
adventurers
> capture a 4-dimensional life form by spearing a
cross
> section of it
> when it manifests on Earth. So, if I stuck my hand
> in Flatland
> (cf. Edwin Abbott), and an inhabitant stuck a two
> dimensional
> needle through the palm of my hand, 1) it would hurt
> and 2)
> it would trap the crosssection of my hand within
> that plane,
> provided it were strong enough. So even
> three-dimensional
> lifeforms can harm ten-dimensional life forms,
> though of course
> the EXTENT of the harm would be less. This is not to
> be underestimated, however; a two-dimensional weapon
> can still
> kill me (simply, by slicing me in half). However, a
> ONE-dimensional
> weapon would simply poke a hole in me. There is a
> hyperdimensional
> maxim that says that "An n-dimensional volume
> bisects a n+1-dimensional
> volume". So in the Lord of Terror arc, if the
> superstring were 10-dimensional,
> in fact, he only needed a 9-dimensional scythe.
> Alternatively, the
> superstring could have been 11-dimensional
> (11-dimensional supergravity
> does exist), in which case it would have truly have
> had to been 10-dimensional.

I see your point about my 2-D vs 3-D analogy. I'll use
something else. However, unless SP/DH really messed up
in the translation of the chapter where Belldandy
explains how this works, it seems Fujishima is pretty
clear on how he sees this point of extra-dimensional
beings appearing in 3-D space. The Flatland analogy is
interesting, but if Belldandy is 10 dimensional then
she is n+6 dimensional and the point is moot.  ^_^

> 2. The second kind of attack is the spell. While
> less
> spectacular and requiring more time and effort on
> Belldandy's part, it is virtually unstoppable by
> anything in the universe. This is because spells in
> AMG
> are actually programs running on Yggdrasil. When she
> forms a spell, Belldandy is actually writing a
> program
> on Yggdrasil. In fact, spells are often called
> programs
> in AMG. Since Yggdrasil can change the universe to
> look
> like or act like anything it wants, nothing in this
> universe can resist one of Belldandy's spells any
> more
> than the image on your TV screen can resist when the
> video signal begins sending a new scene. Let's
> consider
> an example. Belldandy is confronted with a character
> who is capable of blowing up the entire planet.
> Belldandy, of course, thinks this would be a bad
> thing
> and tells Yggdrasil that the character should become
> a
> turnip. Yggdrasil tells the superstring, and voila!
> Instant turnip. Not a turnip capable of destroying a
> planet (unless Belldandy defined it as such), but a
> plain old, everyday turnip. There is no possible
> defense to such an attack unless the character can
> also
> control the superstring and tell it that they are
> not,
> after all, a turnip.
> >>
> 
> I think this is an oversimplification of things.
> First,
> there is no indication that Yggdrasil is superior to
> the universe; just because it's outside the universe
> doesn't
> mean it can change it to its will, much like how we
> three-
> dimensional beings cannot manifest two-dimensional
> planes
> however we wish. Second, I prefer to think of it as
> when
> the goddesses cast a spell, Yggdrasil causes an
> eigenstate
> collapse, thus reducing possible quantum
> superpositions of
> states to the one with their desired effect. This is
> different
> from your description, because of course there are
> other
> organisms observing different quantum states. This
> would lend
> a certain difficulty to casting spells -- the larger
> the eigenstate shift desired, the more difficult the
> spell would be
> because of the contradicting observations present at
> the moment.
> Of course, I have no proof for this, but it's more
> aesthetically
> "pleasing". 

Veeeery interesting. That would neatly explain how
certain spells are more difficult than others. Too bad
Fujishima doesn't address quantam theory much that I
can remember, because this is, as you say, an elegant
solution. 

Since no other mechanism has been identified
canonically, I assume that all Yggdrasil-based
manipulation of the universe is done through the
superstring.

> After all, were things the way you
> explain, Hild could
> simply manifest a universe where Keiichi is her
> servant -- no matter
> whether the goddesses can also manifest superstring
> eigenstate
> shifts, because it would be instantaneous. (Vice
> versa also true,
> and this would reduce magical battles to constant
> eigenstate shifts).

For Hild to manifest such a universe, though, she
would have to either have complete control over the
superstring, something there is no evidence for, or
construct her own superstring as the Lord of Terror
was going to do. Since she hasn't done so, she either
does not have the power or the desire to do so. Given
her demonstrated lack of regard for mortals, I would
tend to think she doesn't have the ability. Even
Kami-sama, taking Yggrasil offline for all other
functions and having the definition of the universe
right there (not having to make one up) required a
long time (the moon rock bracelet chapters) to build a
superstring.

> That's all I have for now. Good work for the most
> part; I'd be
> interested to see how you would interpret the
> angel/devil system,
> Schrodinger's Whale, Maxwell's Demon, etc. etc.

Hmm, I have ideas about Maxwell's demon (and all the
other little demons that make engines run, etc.) but
Schrodinger's whale? I have no idea. Maybe someone
else has? 

Brian W.


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